In the November issue of Scientific American, psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen of the University of Cambridge explores the possibility that some of the genes that contribute to autism are inherited along with genes behind certain cognitive talents common to scientists, engineers, mathematicians and other technical-minded people. Some evidence suggests that regions around the world where a lot of engineers and scientists live and marry—such as Silicon Valley in California and Eindhoven in the Netherlands—have higher than usual rates of autism. When two technical-minded people have children, they may be more likely to have a child with autism because of the underlying genetics. To help gather data to test these ideas, Baron-Cohen and his colleagues have created a Web site where parents can report what they studied in college, their occupations and whether or not their children have autism.

Chat Transcript

ferrisjabr
Good morning everyone! I'm Ferris Jabr, one of the associate editors at Scientific American

ferrisjabr
We'll be starting the chat soon

mbloudoff
Hi everyone, I'm Mollie Bloudoff-Indelicato with Scientific American. I'll be joining in the chat as well.

Summer
My name is Aaron Summer Lopez of Kansas City, Missouri

darciforrester
Hi - my name is Darci Forrester - I'm in Oklahoma

mbloudoff
Feel free to start posting questions now. We'll get started in a few minutes.

mbloudoff
Aaron, Darci -- Great to have you to chatting with us today. Looking forward to your questions.

jm_c_r
Hi my name is Josep M Im in Reus Catalonia

sbaroncohen
Hi, this is Simon Baron-Cohen. Looking forward to chatting.

ferrisjabr
Welcome to the Scientific American chat.

ferrisjabr
We'll be live for the next 30 minutes with University of Cambridge psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen, who is an expert on

ferrisjabr
I'm Ferris Jabr, an associate editor for Scientific American, and I'll be hosting this chat.

ferrisjabr
Let's get started.

darciforrester
Hi Ferris

darciforrester
Hi Simon

ferrisjabr
Does anyone have any general questions for Professor Baron-Cohen about the genetics of autism?

darciforrester
Yes - what kind of links are there to schizophrinia

darciforrester
My husband and i both have genetic histories of it....

darciforrester
Currently, our son is undergoing a trial of Risperdal (under the watch of a neurologist), and from what I understand

darciforrester
and have read it is considered an anti-psychotic

sbaroncohen
the majority of people with autism do not have autism but they can co occur

Summer
My question was two-fold in relation to Autism and how it physiologically affects us during winter.

Summer
Which would allow me to understand more of myself because I have not been diagnosed with Autism but my doctor referred to Asbergers.

sbaroncohen
autism doesn't seem to have a seasonal component unlike some forms of depression

sbaroncohen
a diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome can be useful to help a person understand why they have had difficulties

Summer
Biologically though has it ever been studied a link between higher thought in cold vs hot climates? This may be an avenue that could shed

Summer
light on demographics.

sbaroncohen
i'm not aware of any research comparing rates of autism in different climates

Summer
thank you sir.

sbaroncohen
we want to find out what the 'risk factors' are in parents to have a child with different kinds of autism

sbaroncohen
parents can help our research by going to www.cambridgepsychology.com/graduateparents

nkvenugopal
What are the common 'risk factors' that you've come across?

mbloudoff
How many parents have participated so far?

sbaroncohen
the website was only launched on november 2nd so it's too early to say

sbaroncohen
we are hoping to have thousands of parents give us information about their degrees and occupations

sbaroncohen
risk factors in parents include having a previous child with autism

sbaroncohen
but we are testing the hypothesis that scientists may have a higher rate of autism among their children

David Smith
is it true that MIT was approached to do a study like this buy declined access to alumni

sbaroncohen
It is true that we explored running this study at MIT.

sbaroncohen
the advantage of our website study is that it doesn't focus on one specific university like MIT

ferrisjabr
It might be interesting to discuss the observations related to this hypothesis

ferrisjabr
Particularly the higher rates of autism among MIT alumni, in the Silicon Valley etc

sbaroncohen
we looked at autism rates in a different 'silicon valley' in the Netherlands, called Eindhoven

sbaroncohen
we found there were more than twice as many children with autism in Eindhoven than in other Dutch cities

sbaroncohen
Eindhoven is an information technology hub

nkvenugopal
Regarding the hypothesis, does it stem from a hypthesis that scientists are borderline autistic as well?

darciforrester
do you consider autism a kind of evolution of the brain?

sbaroncohen
i think autism involves a different kind of mind and brain

sbaroncohen
evolutionary hypotheses are very difficult to test

Ornella
Are you also going to look at parents? If they have also autistic traits?

sbaroncohen
we published a study in 2010 on parents, showing they have higher levels of autistic traits

sbaroncohen
that was in the journal Molecular Autism

Ornella
Thanks I will look at the publication

ferrisjabr
Just a note for any latecomers: the chat is in full swing; feel free to post your questions

darciforrester
systemizing is very interesting to read about....

darciforrester
we have noticed how our son reacts to different situations....eg, he loves to be cuddled, and seems to empathize with

darciforrester
inanimate objects or non-human characters

sbaroncohen
i suspect that among parents or siblings of a person with autism there are higher rates of talents in systemizing

nkvenugopal
Can you explain that a little bit more? 'higher rates of talents in systemizing'?

Tamitha Mulligan Skov
It is generally known among engineers that many in the field tend toward autism anyway, regardless of intellect.

sbaroncohen
we have found fathers and grandfathers of children with autism are more likely to be engineers

sbaroncohen
systemizing is how we figure out how a system works

sbaroncohen
some systems are mathematical, some are mechanical, some are natural (like the weather)

sbaroncohen
people with autism seem to be very interested in systems because they follow rules and have predictable

sbaroncohen
and of course scientists systemize as part of their job
patterns

mbloudoff
Is it just a paternal link (fathers and grandfathers)?

darciforrester
yes, i'm curious about the paternal link as well.

sbaroncohen
we don't know if the link is just paternal - our website study should help us identify if it is maternal as well

sbaroncohen
i expect that both parents are contributing genes relevant to autism

darciforrester
do you have a close date on data collection? when will the results be published?

Sheena
My son is autistic, and my degree is in English. However, I have a great interest in science. Will your study take interests into account?

Tamitha Mulligan Skov
In engineering you often do not need well developed social skills either. Could personality play a role as well?

sbaroncohen
we haven't got questions about 'interests', only about 'degrees' and 'occupations'

sbaroncohen
our study will run for a couple of months and we will summarize the results in Scientific American

darciforrester
awesome. i'll be watching for it.

ferrisjabr
I think Sheena and Tamitha make good points. Personality and interests come into play too

ferrisjabr
Perhaps future studies will look more closely at these factors

ferrisjabr
But asking about degrees and occupations is a good way to get useful data

Heather Beresh
I think Interests would be important to include! Perhaps in a follow-up study

sbaroncohen
i agree interests of parents would be very informative

sbaroncohen
Personality is precisely what we are interested to study

sbaroncohen
A personality that is attracted to systems more than social relationships

nkvenugopal
Did the parents (or grandparents) exhibit any signs of borderline autism?

sbaroncohen
the study in Molecular Autism 2010 by Wheelwright and colleagues shows parents have higher levels of autistic traits

Rbtsfg
is it just males with autism that favour systemizing (cars, trains etc)?

Rbtsfg
how do females with autism tend to 'systemize'?

sbaroncohen
males in the population do show stronger interests in systems, on average

sbaroncohen
females with autism may systemize differently to males. this needs more research

ferrisjabr
Is it possible that systemizing in girls and women is less obvious and more difficult to detect?

nkvenugopal
Would your study also look into a correlation between 'degrees' and 'occupations' and where the child lies on the spect

sbaroncohen
we will be looking at parental degrees/occupations and child outcome on the autistic spectrum

Heather Beresh
Glad you are doing this research though - I've been curious about this for some time now. My family would fit your criteria for sure!

Sheena
I think girls systemize less obviously. That is why so many girls may live with undiagnosed Asperger's syndrome for instance.

Rbtsfg
perhaps less obvious to those 'looking' for male-pattern traits?

sbaroncohen
i think you're right that systemizing in females may be harder to detect

sbaroncohen
in what way might girls systemize less obviously?

sbaroncohen
the topic of autism in girls has had very little scientific attention and is very important

Tamitha Mulligan Skov
You will definitely find a positive correlation. Autistic people are drawn to science fields requiring little public speaking.

mbloudoff
Fantastic chat everyone. We have about five minutes left. Any last questions for Dr. Baron-Cohen?

ferrisjabr
I'll just make a few quick points

ferrisjabr
Tamitha, I think that is an interesting nuance. Perhaps some scientists on..

ferrisjabr
the more 'severe' end of the spectrum stay out of the spotlight

Heather Beresh
do you think autism is related to not filtering stimulus but rather taking it all in and storing it for later sorting and analysis?

sbaroncohen
some people will be aware that DSM-5 plans to remove the term 'Asperger Syndrome' as a diagnosis

Tamitha Mulligan Skov
Are the statistics lower for girls in science and engineering fields due to less women in science?

darciforrester
what are your views on the dsm-5 changes?

ferrisjabr
Yes that's another important issue. The results from the DSM-5 Field Trials are currently being published

Heather Beresh
if so, this would be an excellent skill for scientists!

sbaroncohen
i think this is key - people with autism do tend to have difficulties filtering what information is relevant

darciforrester
from my understanding it can still be written in the notes...

Summer
sytemizing through language rather than science or math is definitely going to be less noticeable.

darciforrester
personally, i think it's great.

ferrisjabr
Some people are worried that some people with autism may be excluded from diagnosis

Summer
more noticable rather. lol

ferrisjabr
Simon do you have thoughts about the new DSM-5 definition of autism spectrum disorder?

darciforrester
i have seen first hand what is considered 'classical' autism vs. aspergers, and to me it is a whole other ballgame.

Heather Beresh
so then, giving them tool to learn better ways of sorting and analysing information should be a focus

sbaroncohen
on the plus side, DSM-5 does highlight that autism is a spectrum

sbaroncohen
DSM-5 is also prompting scientists to start testing for differences between subgroups

darciforrester
i think that people will still be diagnosed, but more correctly.

Heather Beresh
it would turn a deficit into a strength

darciforrester
i'm curious to see what the prevalence will be with the new definitions.

sbaroncohen
most important to diagnosis is not the label but what the person's needs are

sbaroncohen
it's been a pleasure chatting with you all

ferrisjabr
Okay everyone we're getting ready to wrap things up

sbaroncohen
sorry if i've not managed to reply to all the comments

darciforrester
exactly :) it's just a label.

ferrisjabr
Thanks so much to everyone for participating and for all your questions

Paul Wolf
Food for thought in Psychology!

darciforrester
thank you for your chat :)

mbloudoff
Thank you to Dr. Baron-Cohen for joining us on Scientific American's live chat. And thanks to Ferris Jabr who set this up.

sbaroncohen
you're welcome. hope you enjoyed the article

David Smith
thanks

David Smith
very interesting

ferrisjabr
If anyone has any last questions you can send them to me on twitter

ferrisjabr
Bye for now!

Tommy Gilbertson
fantastic insight! finally we are getting glimmers of an answer to autism. continue this line of research at all costs!

9 Comments

1. 1. l.oestreicher 06:36 PM 10/27/12

   Simon Baron-Cohen asks how genes for autism could have persisted and spread in the population as autism and ASD limits one’s ability to even form relationships. True enough. He simply states autism is a genetic condition.
   The best way to unravel the contributions of genetics and environment to the genesis of a certain condition is with twin studies comparing the monozygotic with the dizygotic. In 1977 such as study killed the “Ice Box Mother” theory of autism and lead to the proliferation of studies on the genetics of autism and ASD.
   At that point in time (1977) autism was a rare condition. As the number of children afflicted by this condition has grown and grown, these twin studies became easier to perform and were repeated again and again. Never again would genetic factors so dominate the findings. Then in 2011 a very large study was reported from Stanford University in California. It showed autism and ASD having 38% genetic and 57% environmental influence. So at least we can now say with a good sense of assurance this condition has both deep genetic and environmental roots.
   The selection of favorable and unfavorable genes depends on the history of the environmental challenges a population has faced and is facing. For instance, not having resistance to smallpox was never a selective pressure for the indigenous populations of the New World until the smallpox virus appeared on the scene. Could it be during the period from 1977 until now something has changed in the environment of infants causing a previous set of innocuous ‘engineers’ genes to become ‘autism’ genes? After all an engineer with half decent social skills is a highly rated person, widely admired, and certainly mating material as Simon Baron-Cohen illustrates with his stories of all those fathers and grandfathers who were engineers.

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2. 2. l.oestreicher 06:38 PM 10/27/12

   (continued)
   
   Has the conduct of infancy changed in the last 40-50 years? Very few people appreciate the depth and magnitude of the change. After all it is hard to study and if the whole story is genetic anyway, why bother? Nevertheless, it is clear the number of hours an infant spends in close proximity to a video device has gone from virtually zero to 25% or more of their waking hours. Our infants with ‘engineers’ genes are the same ones who seem to love this kind of stimulation often more than the company of their family. Video devices do not socially interact on any level. Face to face social interaction is demanding skill played on many levels simultaneously in real time with no time to sit back and cogitate. It is acquired with practice and like language it is best learned when very young.
   Those parents who make their living in technology and believe in all the promises of Baby Einsteins and Mozarts, who have plenty of resources to spend on their infants, who are far from their extended families, and who are pressed for time in an career that makes little allowances for family might fully welcome these clever distractions into their nurseries. The consequences of this historic environmental change in the nursery could be driving many of Simon Baron-Cohen’s observations.
   
   Leonard Oestreicher MD
   Author “The Pied Pipers of Autism”
   
   

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3. 3. l.oestreicher 12:27 PM 10/30/12

   Prior comments aside, Simon Baron-Cohen is, in my opinion, the premier investigator of autism and ASD of our time.

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4. 4. l.oestreicher 10:04 AM 11/1/12

   where is the blog?

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5. 5. FuSci 10:12 AM 11/9/12

   So are you saying that because some of the base traits between engineer-minded people and autistics are the same, that they may also have the same formula? Meaning that the dna needed for an engineer baby might be the same needed for an autistic one?

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6. 6. amcmillan 11:19 AM 11/9/12

   Is the full transcript of this chat available anywhere?

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7. 7. l.oestreicher in reply to FuSci 09:01 PM 11/11/12

   Yes. And what has changed to make this transformation in phenotype from engineer to ASD? The experience of infancy has changed. Today's babies are surrounded by objects mimicking social behavior with faces, eyes, voices, etc. but these object such as TV, video, talking toys do not provide any true social interactions. This in turn encourages the development of internal communication as opposed to social communication. A good description of autism and ASD is a child who is more or less locked into internal communication.
   
   

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8. 8. Theo Cats 04:53 PM 12/3/12

   First, to introduce myself: I am an Eindhoven inhabitant, physicist and mathematician (indeed, I worked with Philips for nearly four years), and father of two sons, both diagnosed as autists, and two daughters, none of which are diagnosed.
   
   In my opinion, research into correlations should be conducted with extreme care. The region of Eindhoven, with its surplus of technicians, has been known to have a significantly high number of diagnoses for over ten years now. The local Youth Health Care organizations have become much more sensitive to autism than the corresponding organizations in other cities. This may well account for quite a large part of the higher rates of diagnosing autism. A basically small effect may in this way have resulted in an overwhelming increase in the number of diagnosed autists.
   
   Methodologically, I would like to pose question marks with prof. Baron Cohen's research. He invites parents of autistic children to submit information about the subjects they themselves studied. This will definitely not result in an random selection of informers: people dealing with (their children's or their own) autism are more likely to react, and the call being sent to Scientific American readers will also contribute to a larger response from SMET interested. Hence, this survey could never lead to rejection of a correlation hypothesis.
   
   Finally, I am convinced that autism in traditional (agricultural) communities was less obvious and accepted more easily. An autistic farmer lived a life a bit aside of his fellow-villagers, looking after his livestock and growing his harvests. Nowadays, in our highly evolved society, children must meet very high standards of social behaviour. Once you're "strange", other children don't play with you anymore and you are labelled "dumb" or "stupid". You do not even get the chance to learn social rules, as you are an outcast already. In my opinion, the best way to reduce the occurrence of autism is to raise our world to a higher standard of acceptance of the deviant.
   
   I would like to hear prof. Baron Cohen's reflections of the issues of diagnosers' higher sensitivity to autism in "silicon valleys" and of a non-representative set of respondents to his survey.

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9. 9. OceanView 09:53 PM 1/6/13

   Hi
   
   I think this is a chicken or egg case. I think people with Autism go into eegineering because many parts of it you can work alone. They are not going to be social workers. Engineering you can be all alone in your cube and design thing or write software.
   
   OceanView

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