Delayed: California's hopes for a hydrogen-fueled highway don't appear to be on track to materialize by 2010.
Image: FLICKR/DRB62
-
The Best Science Writing Online 2012
Showcasing more than fifty of the most provocative, original, and significant online essays from 2011, The Best Science Writing Online 2012 will change the way...
Read More »
SAN FRANCISCO – Soon after Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger (R) took office in 2003, he set in motion a campaign promise to build, by 2010, a "hydrogen highway" composed of 150 to 200 fueling stations spaced every 20 miles along California's major highways.
Schwarzenegger's "Vision 2010" plan promised that every California motorist would have access to hydrogen fuel by the end of the decade. He has since repeatedly mentioned the highway in a standard stump speech on his environmental accomplishments.
But the program has fallen short of expectations. With less than 10 months until the end of the decade, only 24 hydrogen fueling stations are operating in California, most of them near Los Angeles.
The vision of a hydrogen infrastructure, with fueling stations dotting the interstates, has not materialized, partly because the eager governor may have set unrealistic targets.
Gerhard Achtelik, manager of the hydrogen highway program at the Air Resources Board, admitted in an interview that the state would not hit its 150-station goal by 2010.
"That was a very optimistic guess," Achtelik said. "It's certainly been a learning experience."
The state's hydrogen-highway experience points to a fundamental question confronting any effort to build an alternative car market, be it powered by hydrogen or electricity: What comes first, the vehicle or the infrastructure?
Of the hydrogen effort, Achtelik conceded that the public has "not received the vehicles as quickly as we hoped."
Automakers have developed test models and advanced fuel-cell technology in labs around the world, but this test phase has not yet resulted in anything close to a commercial hydrogen car market.
"If all the cars were there that would be needed for the infrastructure, then the stations would be there," Achtelik said.
Vision with 'hiccups'
Roy Kim, of the California Fuel Cell Partnership, also said developing hydrogen stations when there are not enough cars to serve them does not make sense. The most likely candidates to build the stations in the private sector -- the oil companies -- still see the infrastructure as a questionable investment, while public dollars, especially in cash-strapped California, have been scarce.
But Kim sees reason for optimism, with General Motors Corp., Honda Motor Co., Toyota Motor Corp. and Daimler AG moving closer to putting hydrogen cars in the hands of customers. Once the Honda Clarity or GM Equinox catches on, the stations will come, he argued.
"It has had its hiccups," said Kim of the hydrogen highway program. "But this is characteristic of any emerging new technology. It takes time to realize a vision, and it takes patience to get there."
See what we're tweeting about
15 Comments
Add CommentWhy are we still wasting time and money on hydrogen as a fuel? Electric cars are a reality now. Everyone has access to electricity at their home and possibly at their workplace. Go watch "Who Killed the Electric Car?" and you will find it was the hydrogen-backers who killed a functional electric car program. They probably fueled by the oil companies who see themselves taking over hydrogen fueling as well.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisElectric cars work now! The grid is already in place. We can generate electricity in a number of ways - some of them carbon neutral. Forget hydrogen.
I agree with bether, electric cars make perfect sense, plus we have sun shining year round which can enable road side solar panels or solar panel integration to the car which would enable the storage of electricity.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWow, that is truly amazing, well done dude!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRT
www.privacy.at.tc
Electricity is not as good as it may seem. Yes, everyone already has electricity, but where does that electricity come from? Coal, oil, gas. Little of our electricity comes from green sources as of today, so electricity is no greener than gasoline. What would be the purpose of spending thousands or even millions into full electric cars when its "fuel" still results in CO2? Rather, the car industry should jump ahead of the electric industry, and use hydrogen...a source not tied down by other, slower green investments of electricity. Hydrogen is how we get cars off of fossil fuels NOW rather than waiting for the electric industry to catch up.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this@Vertigo
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYou can you use same argument against yourself. Where does hydrogen come from? Well to sustain a country of hydrogen cars you will need to make hydrogen from water via electrolysis. That requires massive amounts of electricity too (there is your oil, coal, gas). On the supply side the question REALLY is are you going to let the consumer draw electricity straight from the grid or send that electricity in order generate hydrogen and then have to distribute the resulting hydrogen via trucks and more infrastructure and so on. I would have to say why waste the extra step of making another substance when we can use electricity directly.
Hi let us always go for a mix. Look at mother nature, a wonderful mix of all things going merrily day after day. Similarly, we can go for electric, fuel cell, or hybrid types. And certainly there will emerge a unity in diversity. and then the real winner will emerge. As long as all these new brands are helpful in lowering carbon emission, we all should be aye sayers.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDr. Thrivikramji.K.P.
Hi
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisOur planet can afford a mix of new technologies that are helpful in keeping the carbon emission under control. So we can go for fuel cells, electric and hybrid cars. After a while the real winner out of these will emerge. But then different parts of the world will have differing choices also with in this mix. After all we demonstrate the axiom unity in diversity. We are all united about low carbon emissions anyway.
The case against hydrogen is even stronger. A hydrogen car goes 60 miles on a kilogram of H2. To make, compress and transport that kilogram takes 60 kWh. You go 1 mile per kWh. Existing electric cars go 4 miles per kWh. So for a hydrogen economy you need to make 4 times the energy, so either 4 times the CO2, or 4 times as many new nuclear power plants, or 4 times as many windmills, or solar panels, or basically 4 times the money.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHaving a mix is nice, but we need to toss the losers fast before we waste too much money on them.
I still think electric is more likely to be a success than hydrogen... Luckily with companies like BetterPlace this could be a success we see very shortly... Yes, we still have to find green ways to produce the electricity but I still feel electric cars are the more reasonable and stronger choice for our future.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBetterPlace has plans for Northern Cali. Take a look:
http://www.betterplace.com/california
Is it not possible that each option is so young that we can't know for sure which will end up being more efficient and clean? Certainly pouring research into a number of different areas is a better bet than putting all the eggs in one basket. New technology that gains wide spread acceptance and use is almost always fraught with its own limiting factors, be they related to technology, resources, geography, public support, whatever. Better to diversify, I say.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNational Emergency Energy Farming Lottery
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTo the American Citizens,
NATIONAL LOTTERY HISTORY as quoted by Scientific Games Lottery-Museum
http://www.scigames.com/sections/lottery-museum/
For almost 400 years the lottery has played a significant role in American history. From 1612 to 1621, it provided the colonists at Jamestown about 8,000 pounds a year that helped them pay passage for many of the new settlers. In 1776, a lottery authorized by the Continental Congress brought in revenue that helped offset the high cost of the Revolutionary War.
Lotteries held during the decade following the war allowed Congress to repay foreign and domestic loans made to the United States in the interest of the Revolution. Before, during, and after the war, state legislatures authorized lotteries that paid for the construction of buildings at Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, and many other prestigious universities. In the 1790s lotteries subsidized state and private buildings in Washington D.C., Philadelphia, and New York.
For the next century lotteries built roads, bridges, railroads, and schools, as well as helping the poor, elderly, and destitute. Although lotteries were banned in the first half of the twentieth century because of isolated cases of fraud and abuse, community leaders and citizens never lost sight of the potential benefits of the lottery. In 1964, the lottery, protected by stringent legislation, re-emerged and once again this recreational "voluntary tax" provides revenues for public education, senior citizens, transportation, roads, and parks.
As you can see by our history, my proposal below isnt so much new as just rejuvenating a system that has worked for us in the past. Lets do it again!
VISION FOR NATIONWIDE EMERGENCY ENERGY FARMING LOTTERY
GOAL:
To take 100 million structures off the grid (meaning reduced consumption-not batteries) in ten years and at same time have those same structures start producing back into the grid. A net difference of two. There are approximately 100-110 million homes. At 50 Million homes producing same amount or close to back into the grid would balance the other 50 Million homes thus taking us to a Neutral carbon footprint.
THE PLAN
It is a simple plan. Have a 24/7 $1 dollar national lottery ticket that would be run in all 50 states. The winners would be issued a $25,000 voucher which could be used for any energy generating product or GREEN appliances. Give it away. To a relative, friend or business. It doesnt matter as long it goes GREEN . Would be fully transferable to any person or entity should the winner already have such items as: Solar, Wind, etc&.
The Feds could help by some form of matching funds or tax credits.
Now, if $1 Billion tickets sold per week, (52.1 billion lottery tickets sold nationwide in 2008) it will generate 40,000 winners per week or 3.968 winners every minute. Every single week of the year, another 40,000 people would be eliminating grid consumption . 20.8 Million
Structures in 10 years effectively pumping electricity back into the grid, effectively dropping our carbon footprint at twice the speed to a neutral position. If we could get matching Federal Funds, we could double that number. Think of that! Thats 41.6 Million Structures. How many GREEN jobs would that create? Millions & Millions in all sectors of GREEN technologies.
The collection of monies will be fully 21st technology. After signing up On-Line; Phones, cell-phones, blackberries, TV sets, email would be but several ways of being notified upon winning. No store terminals will be required.
The day-to-day operations of the lottery would be run by a non-profit organization. For every $25,000 voucher, $10 would go for running operations and increase expansion of this non-profit organization. Therefore, the voucher would be $24,990. The organization purpose would be to help people with Disabilities, Veterans, Homeless, etc&get back on their feet.
ADDENDUM: (2-20-09)
In giving the above paragraph some thought. Here is what Im envisioning. It is only a concept.
Tickets would be bought via a dedicated web-site. Purchasers would have the option of having their bank accounts debited on an individual basis. $1, $5, $10, $25, $50, $100 max. per month. The money debited against your account turns into Lottery Voucher Credits. They would have the option of a window so if they wanted to play at 5:00 pm every day, week, month, etc&they would have the option provided that window is available. Remember, a drawing is approx. every minute for 3.96 winners.
Every time $25,000 is collected, a random drawing from 00001-24990 would issue the winning number.
Thus, this lottery would be a 24/7 operation. Every 3.96 minutes another winning number would be issued. Since each drawing is only 24,990 players, we would need a method of notifying players that they are in the next drawing of 24,990 players and their number is 00001-24990 to prevent confusion as to what game they are entered in, based upon when debit from account occurs, kinda like Keno.
Upon winning, a message would go out to every player announcing the winning number for that drawing. Email, Iphones, cell-phones, text messaging, TV, website, blackberries, Ipods, etc&would be involved based upon players sign-up on the website. Should they win, a message would come up YOU ARE A WINNER $24,990 has been deposited to your account.
We would have an APPROVED VENDOR LIST on the website. Winners would then go to web-site and buy Solar Panels, Wind Turbines, Energy GREEN appliances, Hybrids, Solar Fans, etc&The company that they buy from would debit this account and ship product to the winners.
Since its fully transferable, this web-site account will have a method of transferring balance to another person, entity, corporation, etc&of their choosing provided they have an account on this web-site.
Since most people have a morbid curiosity of how close they came to winning, it would be fun to post the results as to how close they came. For example, I receive an email that says your are number 12,345 the winner number was 12,347. You missed by two numbers. Please try again.
A TYPICAL SCENARIO IF I WON A $25,000 LOTTERY VOUCHER:
I would install Solar in my home which costs around $16,000. The balance of $9,000, I would buy energy GREEN appliances. A new Refrigerator, Washing Machine, Dryer, Freezer, Heating systems, etc&creating additional energy savings. The extra energy now generated would go directly back into the Grid creating additional credits to my account along with generating electricity nationwide back into the grid. The savings of approx. $3000-$6000/yr that I had been paying for monthly energy bills, I would probably buy a Hybrid because I could use my credits for charging my Hybrid. Now my home and vehicle/s would take us to a 0 carbon footprint for our home. As a side benefit of this proposal for Americans is with increased energy output nationwide, it should drive down cost per Kilowatt thus helping the Nation as a whole.
BENEFITS: (Why I would buy a lottery ticket)
1. Increases home values
2. Excess power creates credits . Approx. $0.09 cents per KWH ($avings) to homes
3. Increases disposable income by having minimum or no energy bills.
4. Starts to reduces carbon footprint immediately
5. No new power grid requirements
6. Get to buy new Energy GREEN appliances, bulbs, etc&
7. Use Balance for Hybrid purchase to create a 0 carbon footprint.
8. Spreads installation jobs evenly nationwide; installers, mfgers, sales
9. Increases energy GREEN jobs for American workers
10. Increases re-cycling of old non-GREEN appliances
11. Even distribution reduces risk of terrorist attach against our grid
12. Resistant to energy disruptions due to national disasters ie; Hurricane IKE
THE ODDS: (25,000 to 1) At 25,001 another lottery drawing is done, etc...
A billion per week is 40,000 winners, 3.96 winners every minute. Side Note: Approx. $1.04 Billion of yearly disposable income could be realized by elimination of monthly energy costs.
Winners Minute Winners Hour Winners Day Winners Week Winners Year
3.968 238.08 5,713.92 39,997.44 2,079,867
$99,200 $5,952,000 $142,848,000 $999,936,000 $51,996,672,000
HOMELAND SECURITY
The visions outlined above also defends against the possibility of terrorism regarding our energy grid. With a universal grid distribution, America disruption would be minimal due to the uniformity of energy being produced thru every home, apartments, mobile home parks, industrial complexes, local, state and federal buildings, etc&. nationwide.
CONCLUSION
I look forward to your next 8 years of Presidency. It should be an exciting time for Americans and the prospect of a greater mission for all Americans. Your inaugural speech inspired me to write this letter.
America is better than this. Honor and Integrity need to replace Greed and Immorality.
The mindset of corporations, institutions, government and the people needs to change.
In time of need, the American people have always stood together. This lottery would give the chance for the people to feel involved for a good cause to a new future.
By the People, for the People seems appropriate in this situation.
Even President Abraham Lincoln used lotteries to advance Americas destiny.
The spike in gasoline prices showed us how vulnerable the American people is when it comes to disposable income. We cant keep the economy going if we dont have any extra money to spend. When $800 billion leaves our economy for oil every year, its no wonder.
My proposals above would put substantial monies in your pockets. Instead of a tax rebate for a small amount, my plan would release that $300-$600 monthly electric bill every month allowing for a gradual influx of cash-flow back into the economy. More disposable income forever. Buy a Hybrid?
The visions outlined above would help America (and the world) in bringing about a cleaner environment and a new direction for the 21st Century.
I so hope you might give this some attention and support. The ripple effect of pumping $52 billion into our economy for GREEN jobs & products is self evident.
I am 57 years old and feel Im starting to run out of time to effect positive influences on our planet as a whole. Lets make the 21st Century a new beginning for us all. This will help.
God bless America,
God bless Planet Earth.
Sincerely,
Grass Valley, CA
US States played $52 billion in lottery tickets last year. Why can’t we do something like this to help speed go Green faster?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNational Emergency Energy Farming Lottery
To the American Citizens,
NATIONAL LOTTERY HISTORY as quoted by Scientific Games Lottery-Museum
http://www.scigames.com/sections/lottery-museum/
“For almost 400 years the lottery has played a significant role in American history. From 1612 to 1621, it provided the colonists at Jamestown about 8,000 pounds a year that helped them pay passage for many of the new settlers. In 1776, a lottery authorized by the Continental Congress brought in revenue that helped offset the high cost of the Revolutionary War.
Lotteries held during the decade following the war allowed Congress to repay foreign and domestic loans made to the United States in the interest of the Revolution. Before, during, and after the war, state legislatures authorized lotteries that paid for the construction of buildings at Yale, Harvard, Dartmouth, Brown, and many other prestigious universities. In the 1790s lotteries subsidized state and private buildings in Washington D.C., Philadelphia, and New York.
For the next century lotteries built roads, bridges, railroads, and schools, as well as helping the poor, elderly, and destitute. Although lotteries were banned in the first half of the twentieth century because of isolated cases of fraud and abuse, community leaders and citizens never lost sight of the potential benefits of the lottery. In 1964, the lottery, protected by stringent legislation, re-emerged and once again this recreational "voluntary tax" provides revenues for public education, senior citizens, transportation, roads, and parks.”
As you can see by our history, my proposal below isn’t so much new as just rejuvenating a system that has worked for us in the past. Let’s do it again!
VISION FOR NATIONWIDE EMERGENCY ENERGY FARMING LOTTERY
GOAL:
To take 100 million structures off the grid (meaning reduced consumption-not batteries) in ten years and at same time have those same structures start producing back into the grid. A net difference of two. There are approximately 100-110 million homes. At 50 Million homes producing same amount or close to back into the grid would balance the other 50 Million homes thus taking us to a “Neutral” carbon footprint.
THE PLAN
It is a simple plan. Have a 24/7 $1 dollar national lottery ticket that would be run in all 50 states. The winners would be issued a $25,000 voucher which could be used for any energy generating product or “GREEN” appliances. Give it away. To a relative, friend or business. It doesn’t matter as long it goes “GREEN”. Would be fully transferable to any person or entity should the winner already have such items as: Solar, Wind, etc….
The Fed’s could help by some form of matching funds or tax credits.
Now, if $1 Billion tickets sold per week, (52.1 billion lottery tickets sold nationwide in 2008) it will generate 40,000 winners per week or 3.968 winners every minute. Every single week of the year, another 40,000 people would be “eliminating grid consumption”. 20.8 Million
Structures in 10 years effectively pumping electricity back into the grid, effectively dropping our carbon footprint at twice the speed to a neutral position. If we could get matching Federal Funds, we could double that number. Think of that! That’s 41.6 Million Structures. How many “GREEN” jobs would that create? Millions & Millions in all sectors of GREEN technologies.
The collection of monies will be fully 21st technology. After signing up On-Line; Phones, cell-phones, blackberries, TV sets, email would be but several ways of being notified upon winning. No store terminals will be required.
The day-to-day operations of the lottery would be run by a non-profit organization. For every $25,000 voucher, $10 would go for running operations and increase expansion of this non-profit organization. Therefore, the voucher would be $24,990. The organization purpose would be to help people with Disabilities, Veterans, Homeless, etc…get back on their feet.
ADDENDUM: (2-20-09)
In giving the above paragraph some thought. Here is what I’m envisioning. It is only a concept.
Tickets would be bought via a dedicated web-site. Purchasers would have the option of having their bank accounts debited on an individual basis. $1, $5, $10, $25, $50, $100 max. per month. The money debited against your account turns into Lottery Voucher Credits. They would have the option of a “window” so if they wanted to play at 5:00 pm every day, week, month, etc…they would have the option provided that window is available. Remember, a drawing is approx. every minute for 3.96 winners.
Every time $25,000 is collected, a random drawing from 00001-24990 would issue the winning number.
Thus, this lottery would be a 24/7 operation. Every 3.96 minutes another winning number would be issued. Since each drawing is only 24,990 players, we would need a method of notifying players that they are in the next drawing of 24,990 players and their number is 00001-24990 to prevent confusion as to what game they are entered in, based upon when debit from account occurs, kinda like Keno.
Upon winning, a message would go out to every player announcing the winning number for that drawing. Email, Iphones, cell-phones, text messaging, TV, website, blackberries, Ipods, etc…would be involved based upon players sign-up on the website. Should they win, a message would come up “YOU ARE A WINNER” $24,990 has been deposited to your account.
We would have an “APPROVED VENDOR LIST” on the website. Winners would then go to web-site and buy Solar Panels, Wind Turbines, Energy GREEN appliances, Hybrids, Solar Fans, etc…The company that they buy from would debit this account and ship product to the winners.
Since it’s fully transferable, this web-site account will have a method of transferring balance to another person, entity, corporation, etc…of their choosing provided they have an account on this web-site.
Since most people have a morbid curiosity of “how close” they came to winning, it would be fun to post the results as to how close they came. For example, I receive an email that says “your are number 12,345 the winner number was 12,347. You missed by two numbers. Please try again.
A TYPICAL SCENARIO IF I WON A $25,000 LOTTERY VOUCHER:
I would install Solar in my home which costs around $16,000. The balance of $9,000, I would buy “energy GREEN” appliances. A new Refrigerator, Washing Machine, Dryer, Freezer, Heating systems, etc…creating additional energy savings. The extra energy now generated would go directly back into the “Grid” creating additional credits to my account along with generating electricity nationwide back into the grid. The savings of approx. $3000-$6000/yr that I had been paying for monthly energy bills, I would probably buy a Hybrid because I could use my credits for charging my Hybrid. Now my home and vehicle/s would take us to a “0” carbon footprint for our home. As a side benefit of this proposal for Americans is with increased energy output nationwide, it should drive down cost per Kilowatt thus helping the Nation as a whole.
BENEFITS: (Why I would buy a lottery ticket)
1. Increases home values
2. Excess power creates “credits”. Approx. $0.09 cents per KWH ($avings) to homes
3. Increases disposable income by having minimum or no energy bills.
4. Starts to reduces carbon footprint immediately
5. No new power grid requirements
6. Get to buy new Energy GREEN appliances, bulbs, etc…
7. Use Balance for Hybrid purchase to create a “0” carbon footprint.
8. Spreads installation jobs evenly nationwide; installers, mfg’ers, sales
9. Increases energy GREEN jobs for American workers
10. Increases re-cycling of old “non-GREEN” appliances
11. Even distribution reduces risk of terrorist attach against our grid
12. Resistant to energy disruptions due to national disasters ie; Hurricane IKE
THE ODDS: (25,000 to 1) At 25,001 another lottery drawing is done, etc...
A billion per week is 40,000 winners, 3.96 winners every minute. Side Note: Approx. $1.04 Billion of yearly disposable income could be realized by elimination of monthly energy costs.
Winners Minute Winners Hour Winners Day Winners Week Winners Year
3.968 238.08 5,713.92 39,997.44 2,079,867
$99,200 $5,952,000 $142,848,000 $999,936,000 $51,996,672,000
HOMELAND SECURITY
The visions outlined above also defends against the possibility of terrorism regarding our energy grid. With a universal grid distribution, America disruption would be minimal due to the uniformity of energy being produced thru every home, apartments, mobile home parks, industrial complexes, local, state and federal buildings, etc…. nationwide.
CONCLUSION
I look forward to your next 8 years of Presidency. It should be an exciting time for Americans and the prospect of a greater mission for all Americans. Your inaugural speech inspired me to write this letter.
America is better than this. Honor and Integrity need to replace Greed and Immorality.
The mindset of corporations, institutions, government and the people needs to change.
In time of need, the American people have always stood together. This lottery would give the chance for the people to feel involved for a good cause to a new future.
By the People, for the People seems appropriate in this situation.
Even President Abraham Lincoln used lotteries to advance America’s destiny.
The spike in gasoline prices showed us how vulnerable the American people is when it comes to disposable income. We can’t keep the economy going if we don’t have any extra money to spend. When $800 billion leaves our economy for oil every year, it’s no wonder.
My proposals above would put substantial monies in your pockets. Instead of a tax rebate for a small amount, my plan would release that $300-$600 monthly electric bill every month allowing for a gradual influx of cash-flow back into the economy. More disposable income forever. Buy a Hybrid?
The visions outlined above would help America (and the world) in bringing about a cleaner environment and a new direction for the 21st Century.
I so hope you might give this some attention and support. The ripple effect of pumping $52 billion into our economy for GREEN jobs & products is self evident.
I am 57 years old and feel I’m starting to run out of time to effect positive influences on our planet as a whole. Let’s make the 21st Century a new beginning for us all. This will help.
God bless America,
God bless Planet Earth.
Sincerely,
Grass Valley, CA
Hydrogen derived from natural gas is cheaper than hydrogen derived from the hydrolysis of water. But this makes no sense economically because it is more efficient to simply compress natural gas for motor fuel rather than taking the extra step of stripping the hydrogen from it for use as motor fuel. Respectfully, Albert
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this@ruffnsc
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYou can produce hydrogen in processes other than electrolysis =)
Google it!
I got to tell you how I really feel, if all of you think California is leading the way in this country, you should at the very least be prepared for what's next. This state has created an atmosphere of anti-capitalism that, if it should become the model for the rest of the nation, will end pollution by fossil fuels in the next ten years. That being said, the following scenario is not science fiction, but science fact. Better start excercising, raising your own food, get off the electric grid (the smart or the dumb one), secure precious metals, arm yourself( to provide game and to protect your family), find a nice cave with underground springs and a back escape route and most important of all; be prayerful and keep a constant vigil. Stock up on three times the amount of food and supplies you think you will need in order to share with those that are not prepared. As a Christian, that would be my plan for an uncertain future. I pray that that day will not come, but I'm to much of a Boy Scout not to be prepared if it should.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this