So people in Islamabad are having a hard time believing bin Laden is dead without seeing his body, which was reportedly buried at sea?
Again, because there is not going to be a body to see, the conspiracy theorists will prevail. If the burial at sea is true, I don't know how idiotic one could be. First of all, even if you provide very explicit scientific evidence in this part of the world to people, they would still lean toward the conspiracy theories. That's just the culture. Just imagine the right-wing columnists and media people and political parties and religious parties in Pakistan and throughout the Muslim world who are militant extremists—you actually gave them more fodder. You could have had the body and said, "Here's the forensic evidence. Here's an international body of doctors that performed an autopsy." Maybe they did all of this before they dumped the body. Still, the airwaves in Pakistan are being led by the conspiracy theorists.
Bin Laden was found in a heavily fortified compound in a fairly populated area near Islamabad. Did that come as a surprise?
It's standard in Pakistan to build these humongous compounds, where living quarters are covered by green space and that green space is then gated and there's a boundary wall, which is usually substantially high with barbed wire on top of it. It's not something out of the ordinary.
This is a very tribal culture where people—men, especially—believe that women should not be seen by strangers. In addition, a large number of tribal Pashtuns living in the area became wealthy by the drug trade and could afford to build these compounds—this whole area is a major trade route for opium. Another reason to build those compounds is security. A lot of wealthy Pashtuns have disputes with their cousins over land that they have inherited. Because of these inheritance disputes, a lot of people end up hurting or killing their own cousins over their land. So it's common to build these compounds to ward off attacks from your relatives who may be after your land as well.
If it is true that Osama bin Laden was killed in Abbottabad, I'm not at all surprised because that is a place where a lot of these radicalized clerics came from. What does surprise me was his proximity to the Pakistani military academy, which is the West Point of Pakistan, where all the commissioned officers get trained. It is surprising that he was bold enough to find refuge so close to the military training college. There are a lot of people who are trying to create intimations that the military was perhaps involved. You know, if the military were involved they wouldn't have kept him there; they would have kept him 100 miles away from that place. It's possible that the military was looking for bin Laden everywhere, and that's the last place they would have bothered to look.
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Add CommentHerr Dr Goebbels must be laughing in his grave. We are bathed in lies. The problem is we have way too many people willing to accept them as truth. Then strangely as Nazi Germany taught us the lies become truth. Our politicians are gutless and will not stand up for truth; to wit, the birthers.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI'm not your typical conspiracy theory nut.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHowever, I'm very skeptical about whether we've been told the whole truth- seems a rather odd story.
I wouldn't be surprised if he is still alive in some prison- or we still have his body. There is much value to keeping him alive- or at least keeping his body longer for various tests- it seems odd they would dump him at sea so quickly.
Obviously if he were alive we wouldn't want to admit it because it would encourage the taking of hostages by extremists.
I'm not saying we have been lied to- and that he is alive... I'm just saying I'm skeptical and don't automatically believe what has been reported.
If he is not alive, I believe that to be an accident. We wouldn't have risked our special op lives to take him if it wern't to take him alive. A drone would have been sent in instead.
What doesn't set off conspiracy theorist?They will find fodder with anything if someone will argue with them no matter how stupid the notion is.That is how they get off.plain and simple.Being true or false doesn't matter to them.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisMy guess is that Osama committed suicide before being captured, and that US claims that they killed him for PR purposes.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWho knows though. Maybe they killed him because they were afraid of hostage takings and such occuring.
Do any studies find a correlation between a person's self-identified feeling of being stressed or measured stress and the likelihood of harboring belief in 'conspiratorial' schemes?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisFrom Professor Haider's statements one gets the feeling he thinks the US should have taken further steps to prevent Pakistani conspiracy theorists from "having a field day".
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhy should it be so? The US has no shortage of its own "it's all a lie and I am the only one who knows the truth" people, as do so many other countries. Let Pakistan worry about its evidence-resistant citizens.
The "West" is not responsible for everything that happens in the world; if we were, then we would need the power that goes along with that responsibility, and we clearly don't have it.
I am generally not very fond of conspiracy theories. However, the reported story of bin Laden's death has certain elements that cause eyebrows to be raised.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisFor instance, the first photos that were circulated were admittedly faked. The second one (with the night vision on) also has ample evidence of tampering. Obama claimed he watched the whole thing live, but the "dead female human shield" proved to be quite alive and probably not a human shield at all. The video that has been leaked only shows the aftermath of the operation, not the actual people involved. And the dumping of the body doesn't exactly make things more believable. And of course, the coincidence has been quite fortunate for Obama, delivering an extra blow to his opponents only days after the whole birth certificate business.
All these could well be coincidences and the truth may be perfectly innocent. However, it is not that unreasonable to see them in a more sinister light.
Burial at an unspecified location at sea makes sense to me - there's no place for memorials or pilgramages. Also, "watching" realtime means the action could be followed, but not necessarily seen, so it's not surprising that there was confusion as to what happened - a woman was killed and someone assumed it was his wife. What surprises me is that after so many other times people are still trying to give out details when they don't yet have the complete picture. Even the troops involved don't know everything, because each is focused on his part of the action (or should be). So the final story has to be pieced together from all the stories and as usual there will be discrepancies. Yeah, it could always have been done better/differently, but too late now. And not everyone believes Hitler died in that shelter or that Jesus died on the cross. Pick your famous death, not everyone believes it really happened the way it's said. Move on.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNo matter your opinion, PLEASE notice how the conspiracy theory itself (that bin Laden died years ago) is always misquoted as the complete opposite (that he is not dead, like Elvis nuts believe) -- both on your mainstream channels, and indeed right here on SCIAM. Why lie about the claim itself?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"So people in Islamabad are having a hard time believing bin Laden is dead without seeing his body, which was reportedly buried at sea?"
No, silly, just a few questions ago when you asked "What is the nature of these theories?" the interviewee responded:
"There are people here, educated people, who don't actually believe bin Laden was captured or killed at that compound. They think his death might have taken place A LONG TIME AGO, and that it is ONLY NOW BEING REPORTED."
Misleading a subject is very transparent when your loaded question is made moot by a previous answer.
Many people rightly or wrongly don't automatically accept the assertions of the U.S. President, but there is no need for photos or videos to verify that Bin Laden was killed.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThere is a room full of his brains and blood a house full of his fingerprints. So the INDEPENDENT ventification of his death is clearly a simple matter. If the DNA and human remains in the room match Bin Laden then the issue is resolved. if this is not done there are reasonable grounds for conspiracy theories.
Personally, I don't care if the killing is true or false, or if it happened yesterday or a year ago. What bothers me the most is the triumphalist attitude displayed by the US government (and some sectors of civil society). If the news were reporting the end of terrorism or the assurance of a safer and nicer world (including respect for passengers at airports, recognition of immigrants as human beings, inter-religious understanding, etc), I would agree with a triumphalist attitude, and i would probably celebrate too. But for now, the news are basically that one man was shot, then dumped in the sea, and that it is likely that terrorist attacks will pick-up as a result. It is also very likely that terrorist organizations will reorganize and adapt to the new status. So, triumphant about what?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWithout conspiracy theories we would never have investigative journalism, we would never have any detective work, we would never capture any organized crime, and we would have no critical thinking. Throughout history conspiracy and crime go hand in hand. What is suspicious is that people are trying to make people believe that crimes have somehow stopped in these times and that the only true conspiracies are those done by brown people against us and not the other way around.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe CIA has a at least a 3000 man army in Pakistan
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/22/130041571/3-000-man-cia-army-conducts-operations-in-pakistan
http://www.pakistanpatriot.com/?p=32479
so whatever happens there, they have the means to do and must always be considered as possible culprits because they are the usual suspects.
They have already admitted to exporting terror.
http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2010/08/25/new-wikileak-cia-admits-us-exports-terror/
http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/leaked-cia-memo-cites-u-s-jews-among-exporters-of-terrorism-1.310391
CIA agents admit to making Al Qaeda up.
http://www.opednews.com//populum/page.php/genera_alan_mil_070922_seven_cia_veterans_c.htm?f=genera_alan_mil_070922_seven_cia_veterans_c.htm
http://polidics.com/cia/top-ranking-cia-operatives-admit-al-qaeda-is-a-complete-fabrication.html
CIA agent David Headley has been found out as being behind Mumbai where they killed an Indian police chief who was behind the discovery that train explosions originally blamed on Muslims was a false flag operation. The terrorists confession still wounded in hospital is incredibly convincing and incriminating.
http://www.countercurrents.org/mithiborwala181010.htm
http://beforeitsnews.com/story/44/083/MUMBAI_26_11_TERROR_DAVID_COLEMAN_HEADLEY_IS_A_CIA-FBI_AGENT.html
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2009/11/mumbai-suspect-david-headley-introduced.html
http://my.firedoglake.com/frank33/2010/07/06/yes-conspiracy-theorists-mumbai-2611-was-a-false-flag-attack-led-by-us-spy-david-headley/
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Malegaon_blast_Lieutenant_Colonel_Srikant_Purohit_arrested/rssarticleshow/3676189.cms
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThE84w-P-eo
After Mumbai, Chertoff was able to guarantee a billion dollar contract for TSA machines.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/body-scanner-ceo-obama-india/
Then there was CIA agent Raymond Davis who Pakistani Intelligence made the claim was found trying to deliver nuclear bomb and hazardous biological material to Al Qaeda.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://in.news.yahoo.com/cia-spy-davis-giving-nuclear-bomb-material-al-20110219-224833-452.html
Quite a claim for a country receiving so much aid. There is no reason for them to make this up, risking United States anger and retaliation. The U.S. believes they don’t even have to answer to these allegations. Finding Osama bin Laden may provide convenient cover to distract from this story by Pakistani intelligence. The truth is they've given us no evidence of Osama bin Laden’s death. They've given us no evidence of his guilt. They've given no higher-ups any valid trials. All we have are people in our government already implicated in long criminal histories, i.e. Robert Gates, telling us what to believe. Funny how the Iran Contra drug smugglers have their fingerprints all over 911 and are now in Afghanistan as they are going from a place that had eradicated drugs to one that is growing more drugs ever before in their history. They parade everybody else’s body around for people to see, why not this man, Osama bin Laden?
I will be checking to see if you post my comments, or whether you remove them because you do not like the minority opinion it represents. What I have written is well documented. There is no arguing with any thing I have presented. If you do not post them in a timely manner, you may be hearing from my lawyer.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI suggest that you familiarize yourself with the "Terms of Use" at http://www.scientificamerican.com/page.cfm?section=termsofuse
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWaiver: By submitting content to this site, you waive, and agree not to bring at any time, any claims of any type whatsoever against Scientific American or its affiliates, or their officers, directors, employees, contractors, agents, licensors or suppliers in any way arising from or relating to the submitted content, including without limitation any claims asserting: (a) infringement of rights of publicity or misappropriation of likeness or image; (b) invasion of privacy; (c) false light (such as any allegedly false or misleading portrayal of you); (d) infliction of emotional distress (whether intentional or negligent); (e) breach of contract; (f) copyright or trademark infringement; (g) defamation; (h) fraud; or (i) false designation of origin.
Remember way back when when S.A. was about science....
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAnyway, for you conspiracy guys, another angle: the bankers, who have intimate relations with the White House, are/were massively short silver, especially JPM, whose exposure may be/have been a couple o' times its market cap. OBL's demise may have been timed to give the bankers a 'credible' trigger to drive silver down. Almost three hours before the public announcement B.O. got confirmation it was OBL, an event which promptly feloniously leaked, giving bankers an excuse to drive silver through the floor. Note concurrent suspicious activity in gold. Voila, JPM & buddies are saved & B.O. gets desperately needed points.
I wasn't much of a conspiracy theorist but after having an account closed because I was tired of web ads and every comment that was related to a story deleted it is a sad day for serious readers. I guess making nonsense threats against a party that continues to put up adds to sell designer purses was evil. That said I would think it is now open advertising for SCIAM and it's web site.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisPersonally, I love conspiracy nuts. Really.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThey make me feel almost normal.
Like Jon Stewart pointed out, putting bin Laden photos out would clear up everything; example? The Zabruder film of JFK.
They like to remove any thoughts that question or challenge. I went after the idiot who was always running purse and sun glass ads on the posting and was removed from all my previous postings my old account black listed. I have been a fan of SCIAM since 65 but I wonder where they have gone and I question any site that declares better science being funded by big oil. (Notice all the Shell Ads on each page?). But I am sure there is no conspiracy just money being done here.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIf there was a 1% chance that the conspiracy was true that would have been good enough for Dick Cheney. See/read the book The One Percent Doctrine: Deep Inside America's Pursuit of Its Enemies Since 9/11. If that is true then dear Quinn we should go after anything no matter how unlikely it sounds. Good comment.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThey kill the most notorious terrorist that ever lived instead of capturing and interrogating him for valuable information.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhen they do kill him the body is disposed of at sea instead of bringing back the most important evidence of any case in the last 10 years.
The first photos of him released were later admitted to be fake.
The situation room photo where they claimed to be watching the live raid was later admitted to be a fake.
They claimed to have obtained thousands of important documents at the compound. Why wouldn't they be more secure. Even 15 year old hackers have systems that delete all evidence instantly on command and wipe out the hard drive of their computer. Ph paper documents lol yeah okay!
They first claimed that the place was isolated from the outside world with no internet, no phone, and he used a courier to communicate with the outside. At this time they release a photo of the outside of the compound where you don't see any satellite dish. Then they realize that's a retarded idea and say he has internet and communication with the outside world. Then they release a new photo of the compound with a huge satellite dish outside.
Most of the videos released were all from like 1995 when he was in his 40's with a black beard looking healthy. The one that was of him at present age he never looked at the camera.
The present day video shows a man who is supposed to have literally hundreds of billions of dollars from legit companies never mind terrorist funding... Yet he is living in a fortress half as good as most Detroit crack houses. Sooo your telling me he is worth billions yet lives in a shithole mess and he watches TV on a 1994 Zenith television with a VCR?...a VCR!!!
Sloppy ass spur of the moment presidential ratting boost and a pretext for further military involvement in Pakistan. Funny how this happens after the presidential approval ratting poll released was the lowest since he took office. This gave him a nice boost though. It was mostly a pretext to further fund his hidden in my opinion. You know... That hidden war that has killed about 2,500 innocent Pakistani civilians in drone strikes since 2009. You know... the one that never makes American news. Bin Laden living next to Pakistan's military academy is a great excuse for an increased US led war on terror in Pakistan. That was the one good idea they had in this whole operation. Why wouldn't you lie to make a few hundred billion in future defense contracts?
I'm pretty sure Bin Laden is in the middle Europe, Egypt or some other none US territory learning what rendition and breath holding is all about. The fact that the body was claimed to be disposed of means to me we got him and we are keeping him until we see the next moves. I am not a big fan of Obama because I have yet to see him not back down after being bullied about associations and even who his minister is. We all know he went to the Church of the Rev Wright who may not be your ideal of a preacher but in South Side Chicago you need big ones if your going to go up against people like the Daley's. Of course being a Muslim it doesn't even make sense he went to church. (anybody who wants to hear a real christian talk like the devil check out rev Steve Anderson and his remarks on our president. That said I do believe that if we really killed him it would not make news until totally exploited. If I got him out alive I would announce his death and watch the activity for who should be next. If I killed him I would use the intelligence until it went dry. I have to believe that Gates, Mullen and Petraus are smarter than me.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAs far as Pakistan goes we need to really look at the relationships between the Saudi's, Iraqi's, the Pakistanis, Iran, the Indians, the Russians and most of all China. My guts say the buck stops in Beijing and I expect a war between India and Pakistan shortly to pacify the people of China and an effective way to establish who owns that backyard.
The other night I read in the paper how Panetta is concerned with Iran arming sectors of Iraq yet not looking in the mirror as we do the same. No matter how you feel about things Iran, China, India and Pakistan are the parties that need to find a peaceful way out of this quagmire. This is not something we can solve and based on all the money we have borrowed from China we have little to no leverage to change minds and hearts. The best we can do is learn what game we are playing (it is not checkers or tic tac toe) and what the pieces can do.
Keep in mind material wealth is not a freedom fighters way of life. Bin Laden used what money he had to influence the nation of location. He spent money to build roads, hospitals, schools and other institutions that third world countries lack. He was a supplier of the mujaheddin during the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisA true warrior would live a spartan type life and again we are of a culture based on materialism and instant gratification. From a conservative Muslim, Christian or Jew we are living a non holy life. After saying all that I think we all know that Bin Laden did not try to emulate daddy Bin Laden but went the route of destruction not construction.
I do know that a man who controls the millions this man had at his hands (study the honey market and movement of money) he was a menace and we would appear materialistic to most any third world country.
Thanks for the info. It was indeed mentioned a while ago in a <a href="http://www.unitedmessengers.com">courier</a> somewhere. I am glad they got him and thank the people who did. He was a very bad man, but now we don't have to worry about him, just the other terrorists. Navy SEALs are incredible.
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