PLUG-IN PROBLEM?: Some power generators worry that too many electric cars could wreak havoc on local electric grids.
Image: © GM Corp.
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LONG BEACH, Calif. -- Plug-in electric cars could destabilize the distribution of power, a utility executive cautioned at a conference here this week.
Ed Kjaer, director of Southern California Edison's electric transportation advancement program, said plug-in manufacturers, designers and component makers are poised to capitalize on a "perfect storm" that could push electric cars into the mainstream. Kjaer noted that 10 to 12 carmakers are ready to launch plug-in models between 2010 and 2012, creating a sense of "incredible excitement" around a sector that has seen its fair share of false starts.
But Kjaer warned that consumer demand for electric cars is still unproven. He also said he wants infrastructure planners to focus on how a flood of plug-in cars would drain the power grid at the most local level.
"The realities are, this is not a done deal," Kjaer told the "Plug In 2009" conference and exhibition. "We have a lot of challenges before us to help make this market a reality."
Chief among those challenges is how thousands of power-hungry vehicles would tax distribution transformers at the local level. Such transformers have historically handled electricity load for about 10 average-size homes each.
Adding a plug-in car to the grid is equal to about a third of a house, Kjaer said. And because early adopters are likely to spring up in geographic concentrations, that could mean overloaded transformers at the distribution level or plug-in cars potentially causing power outages.
"The worst imaginable situation you could have is your neighbor yelling at you because you blacked out the neighborhood," Kjaer said.
Kjaer is less concerned about transmission or generation being overtaxed, as long as consumers are taught to charge their plug-in cars at night, during off-peak demand periods, to smooth the load. Kjaer said improving distribution is the key infrastructure challenge for utilities, aside from creating a network of charging stations.
"We're talking about the last 10 feet" between the house and the transformer, he said. "It's the last 10 or 20 feet that we've got to work on. We're got to work on it really hard, really quickly, because these cars are coming."
Volt makes splash
The big news at this year's Plug In conference was General Motors Corp.'s announcement that test models of the Chevrolet Volt, a plug-in hybrid, are surpassing 230 miles per gallon in the city, as rated by a U.S. EPA system for measuring energy consumption. If confirmed by EPA, that means the Volt would be the first model to exceed triple-digit gas mileage when introduced in showrooms in late 2010.
Tony Posawatz, GM's vehicle line director for the Volt, told attendees here that the Volt will go into pre-production between March 2010 and August 2010, with commercially available cars set to roll out the following November. He added that GM engineers had just returned from a trip to the desert, where they tested a liquid-cooled battery with positive results.
"This really is breakthrough news," Posawatz said.
James Boyd, a former chief of the California Air Resources Board, said the announcement had him praising GM for perhaps the first time in his career.
"Can you believe the company ... that led the campaign to kill the electric car has released a plug-in hybrid?" Boyd said. "This is my first public congratulatory statement to General Motors ever."
Still, Boyd, now a commissioner at the California Energy Commission, cautioned that the infrastructure issues standing in the way of real commercial viability are likely to block further progress if government officials do not start taking some risks to encourage planting charging stations in home residences and elsewhere.
Among the obstacles are building out charging sockets in homes and permitting them through local authorities, in addition to mapping a future network of charging stations. The process for residential construction can sometimes take months, which would likely deter buyers. And limited range means charging stations away from the home are a must.
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38 Comments
Add CommentThere are always naysayers whenever a new technology comes along. Funnily enough, all of the naysayers when the internal combustion engine was being introduced have been proven right (except those who thought your face would be ripped off at 80 mph) and the car is still around. So there will be burps and hiccups, but hopefully progress will be made.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI was shocked to find elsewhere that it takes 4 gallons of gas to produce 1 gallon at your local service station. So it seems like a step forward to introduce all electric or "electric as possible" alternatives when only 7.2% of electrical energy is lost in transmission. Other factors to weigh in this
- US has untapped means of generating clean electricity but not too much more oil. There's a definite improvement as long as they don't start pumping up coal fired plants
- there will be huge drops in greenhouse gas emissions
- what will be the environmental impact of disposing of these batteries and fuel cells?
- this may redefine the economy of funding further advancement in high temp superconductors.
- increasing sales brings down the cost of these cars
The article does point a major obstacle--infrastructure--in the electric car. The military and Congress have endorsed and funded efforts to make fueling stations for vehicles. To elevate the potential problem of a grid power failure, automobile manufactures need to take the next step in vehicular propulsion--hydrogen-solar-electric hybrids. While the vehicle is moving it generates its own electricity, which can be used for electrolysis,hydrogen
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTo rwilliston's question of the environmental impact of batteries: From what I have read, lithium batteries are non-toxic and easily recyclable, formed from the third-lightest element and the lightest metal of all. I hope that helps the discussion in some way.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIf you follow the history and development of the 100 year plus old ICE engine cars you will note that they did not wait for all the gas stations to be built and put in place before getting the cars to the people. The gas stations came after the cars. Furthermore you will discover that internal combustion engine vehicles didn't wait for paved roads and highways to be constructed before getting the cars to the people either. The roads came after the cars.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYou might also note that it was an environmental problem - horse waste and dead horses themselves that drove the adoption of the gas powered cars.
And until the model A rolled off the line for about $500, the cars were prohibitively expensive - just like personal computers were when they rolled out in the early 80s.
Folks we've been here before and we have the model in place for rapid adoption. What we lack are the right players. GM deserved to die, not get bailed out. They're only producing 200 to 400 Volts in November and December 2010, and no more than 10,000 during 2011, the cars first full year of production. That's a half assed commitment while they still produce all those greenhouse gas emitters. Ford's plug in program is a joke. Honda already killed their electric car once. Chrysler is all talk and no action. The Chinese and Japanese deserve to drink the USA's milkshake in this field because they have more American spirit than anyone still left in Detroit.
There was a winter scene in the movie "Dr. Zhivago" where the policeman watches a man dismantle a fence. The policeman comments "watching a single man tear down a fence for firewood is pathetic. A mob doing it can destroy a city". The point is that having 1 or 2 or even 200 electric cars plugging is not a problem. Changing the economy to that requires massive infrastructure changes, both in distribution and in electricity production... and sorry, solar and wind do not have the energy density need to feed the maw. Your choices are nuclear, coal or natural gas.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSo, a plug in car is equivalent to 1/3 of a house.... I wonder if the news is going to switch from reporting on the average cost of gas around the country to the average cost of electricity around the country? Probably both.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAt that cost for electricity, now would be the time to put together a business model to produce solar powered recharging stations for those who want to buy an electric car but who do not want their electric bill to skyrocket. I can also imagine the electric companies starting to charge a premium for electric consumption higher than a certain amount to try to offset their cost increases for heavier duty transformers (with some extra profit thrown in, of course).
I must ask if anyone has any real idea what the total cost to the consumer will be for these things compared to the cost of a gas powered car?
The simple solution to the problem of overloading the grid is to use a combination of smart-grid technology and a battery storage system. It would be relatively simple to make system to charged a batter during off-peak hours so that you could use that batter to charge your vehicle whenever you wanted. If you charge your car during off-peak hours, then your car is charged instead of the system's batteries. Problem solved. Sure there is some loss in the storage and retrieval of this energy with this method, but it does completely resolve the issue of overloading the grid.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhat we need is an independent company to come out with this technology and make standardized equipment. This way, the car companies can make cars with standard parts and things will move faster.
We need to scrap the idea of plug-in-hybrids. Having two engines in one vehicle is just pointless when it could easily just have one electric engine.
Also, I don't know where they get the idea that there isn't demand for electric cars. They said that back when they first tried to release them, but they really just didn't try to advertise them at all. The other issue is that they tried to point out all their shortcomings instead of highlighting their pros. Yes, they have lower horsepower, but you don't need all that horsepower anyway. Yes, you have to charge them for a long time, but you don't drive that far every day, and your car sits in your garage for long periods of time anyway. All the cons are easily dismissed for 90% of drivers. We want electic cars, get them to us NOW!
People would charge their cars mostly overnight. That's when the demand for electricity is lowest. Only difference it would make is there would be no more "off peak" hours for electricity.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe consumption would be more balanced than today. I think it would be actually a good thing for the power companies. They would need to adjust production much less.
Shoshin is just flat out wrong and it must be pointed out. Making false and ignorant statements about the capacity of wind and solar adds zero to the debate.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisV3G, smart grid, batteries used to store renewable energy when they're not being produced are all practices that already work.
I wrote on this a few weeks ago on my blog at http://oceanaris.wordpress.com. We need to invest in transmission lines and power generation immediately if electric cars are to be sold. The power demand is going to skyrocket.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI discussed this issue a few weeks ago on my blog at http://oceanaris.wordpress.com. We need to invest immediately in upgrading the transmission system and power generation if electric cars are to enter widespread use.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSomething else for you geniuses to think about. The gas tax pays for the roads. If gas useage falls will we have an electricity tax for it.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGenerating assets have long lives which means that over time, a utility's "fleet" has, typically, newer, more efficient units that require less maintenance and older, less efficient units that require more maintenance. Daytime/night time, day-of-the-week and seasonal differences mean that older, less efficient units are run only when needed and that maintenance work can be done on them when they are not running.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNot having to "adjust production" might sound like a good idea but running those less efficient units means higher operating and maintenance costs (which would be passed along to consumers) and smaller maintenance windows which would mean that new plants would be needed.
This is a ridiculous argument and a straw man.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisKjaer himself wipes out his own argument with this one: "Adding a plug-in car to the grid is equal to about a third of a house, Kjaer said".
Well, did the grid collapse with all the new subdivisions being built during the five year housing boom?
No, it did not.
Will it this time: no it will not.
"V3G, smart grid, batteries used to store renewable energy when they're not being produced are all practices that already work."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisV3G? Please explain.
Smart grid . . . that's not a thing that you can buy. It's a set of capabilities some of which are being used today in some locales but it's really a umbrella concept -- that production and use of electrical energy can be made more efficient by using 21st century computing and communication technologies. So, a "smart grid" application in the context of plug-in electric vehicles could have the utility communicate with your car's charger to tell it when the hourly cost has declined to some value and it should initiate its charging operation. This is an idea; I don't believe anybody has actually implemented such a scheme.
Batteries, sure, we have them all over the place and they certainly could be used to store energy when wind and solar are not being produced. But what scale did you have in mind? How many KwH were you planning on storing -- what's the size and cost. You need design criteria, right, along the lines of, "the system shall be able to handle [you put in the number] days with < 15 mph wind or > 35% cloud cover."
You are going to pay a premium for your green energy; how much more are you willing to pay for storage?
I read an interesting proposal for battery swapping which might put less of a strain on residential infrastructure. The idea was that, just as you go to the gas station now for a fill-up, you would go to a charging station for a battery swap. The station would, for a swapping fee, always have a fully charged battery for your vehicle, and consumers would not need to rewire their home to own an electric car. This would solve the problem of apartment dwellers and others with only street parking, and would also facilitate long-distance travel with slow-charging electric vehicles. Pulling in for a fresh battery would be no more trouble than pulling in for a fresh tank of gas is today. I'm sure there are disadvantages to the concept, but it might help get things going if every homeowner didn't need to worry about prepping their house to fuel their car, and I suspect that utility companies would have an easier time providing the infrastructure/flow capacity for limited business locations, rather than adapting whole cities for neighborhood access. It may not be optimal long-term, but in the short-term could at least make the change to electric more feasible.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhy is the government stonewalling nuclear powere plants with this technology about to expand?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGood question, William.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"The idea was that, just as you go to the gas station now for a fill-up, you would go to a charging station for a battery swap. The station would, for a swapping fee, always have a fully charged battery for your vehicle, and consumers would not need to rewire their home to own an electric car. "
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIt is estimated that these battery packs will cost upwards of $10,000 and might have a 3 to 5 year life or about 1,000 charge/discharge cycles. And, using the Chevy Volt announcement, a "charge" will amount to about 10kWh -- about $1.50 @ 15 cents/kWh.
So, how many $10,000 batteries will the charging system keep in inventory so that they can "sell" a, say, $15.00 exchange.
There are more issues, of course, like how does one make sure that he doesn't give up a nearly new battery, receiving a near-end-of-life unit in exchange.
Those are good points, Johnny, and obviously would have to be addressed--by brighter minds than mine. I assume there would be economies of scale if a battery exchange ever got going as an industry, which might alleviate some of the $10,000-per-battery issues. Regarding the near-end-of-battery-life question, I suspect that would be less of an issue than it might seem. No one person would have any individual battery for more than a single trip, minimizing the risk of inconvenience to any individual. Also, if an industry were built around the provision of batteries, it would be a function of that industry to ensure that the batteries provided were usable, including retiring them when they ceased functioning adequately, and providing roadside assistance/backup if a battery failed in transit. I could imagine a thriving business based on customer service--if the price of batteries came down significantly with volume. It wouldn't be beyond the realm of possibility for a customer to sign a service agreement with Chevron the way people sign up now for cell phone service. It would be up to Chevron to provide the service which would keep the customer loyal when it came time to renew the contract. Not saying I could come up with the perfect business model, but I do think the idea has potential. The upside for the consumer here would be that they would not have to fear facing the financial ding when their privately-owned battery went belly up, which might be enough incentive for many consumers to pay something of a premium for the service. It could act as a sort of insurance, spreading the cost of battery usage over the life of the car, rather than facing that $10,000 hit all at once when your car’s own battery failed.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAll these comments about the benefits (and risks) of switching to electric cars (plug-ins)... and not a single comment addresses the fact that the additional electricity demand (large or small) would need to be met by some power plant, existing or new. If we elect to add more capacity to the grid with coal or natural gas plants, by switching to electric cars we are simply shifting the environmental burden from each vehicle to the generating stations. In fact, when you do the conversion efficiency math, you may be surprised to learn we could increase our overall Green-House-Gas emissions: power plants (in general) waste 2/3 of the thermal output in the conversion to electricity; said another way, in order to generate 1000MW of electric power you need to generate about 3000MW of thermal power.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI am not against electric cars. Just concerned that because we don't see the tailpipe in a car, we think it doesn't contribute to GHG emissions. I'd like to see a study (I am sure it exists) where the entire "system" is considered before we jump into making millions of electric cars under the banner of "green is better", we take into consideration where that power is generated and how. For once, I'd like us to make an informed decision we can live with (without significant unintended consequences).
Demand for electricity is the HIGHEST at night in many northern parts of the grid for electric heat.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe solution is so simple: a little device "A" (called an ammeter) on your electric meter talks (via 1980s technology) to a little device "B" on your car charging system over the electric wires in your house. If your house draws more power (kilowatts) than a preset value as measured by A (and maybe set or even controlled by the Electric Company) then A instructs B to "tone it down" so your car charges slower during peak periods (day) and faster during slow periods (night). A and B would be part of the EV car's purchase price and should not cost more than your electric meter ($20). And the charging system is run by the car's computer anyway so now new technology there. If this has not been invented already ... get to it entrepreneurs and leave Mr. Kjaer to ponder his navel.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisA G.M. union built car that gets 230 mpg city ? I'll bet 220 miles of that is from being towed by a non-union built Toyota. G.M., the union and the government = The return of the Three Stooges.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI differ with those who think we need to worry about maintaining the grid due to the new load of electric cars. I suggest that maintaining the grid with the onset of climate change and the storms it will bring is a much more daunting task. In all probabilty the grid will colapse, not due to demand, but the inability to repair it. Nobody is going to climb a tower in 40 deg C heat or in the middle of an ice storm or tornado etc. Parts will be unavailable. It's time we faced our future instead of hiding our heads in the sand.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI can only view comments one to ten. Whn I slect comment 21-25 i goes back to one to 10. Need to get a new progrmmer I'm tnking.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1733
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"The idea of using solar to power electric cars is tremendously appealing in theory, yet critics insist that it's a myth or a pipe dream at least a decade away. But it's here now --- and our Roadster is the proof. Let's examine how we get 72 miles per day from sunlight, or what I affectionately call 72 MPS, in our solar/electric Tesla."
http://evworld.com/fasttrack/index.cfm?show=myths
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"Electric cars do not directly emit pollutants like the hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides, carcinogens, or carbon dioxide spurred by all internal combustion engines. However, since much of the power grid that recharges an electric car burns large percentages of fossil fuels, they can indirectly pollute.
When comparing the emissions of a conventional gasoline vehicle to that of an electric car on a miles-travelled basis, the EV will always have far less emisisons, even when the local grid is fueled entirely by coal, the dirtest of fuel sources.
More importantly, the electricity that powers electric cars can be created from many diverse sources, including renewable ones like hydroelectric power, geothermal energy, tidal power, solar electric and wind energy."
Definitely the electric power demand will relatively increase or skyrocket, like in oceanaris blog comments, we will need more transmission lines and power generators to support plug-in electric cars at home or anywhere else on the road.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIn the U.S., specially in states where smog condition is high, electric car is likely the best solution to this existing problem in their environment, for average drivers who will be using their electric vehicle in their everyday commute or errants, this condition of lesser gas exhaust emissions will be beneficial for all living things that lives in that affected state.
Now I think, some solutions should be considered while we have time before the mass usage of electric vehicle coming soon next, the government should encourage and back up private investors to build electric distribution facilities, where they can control distribution of electric power where cities who uses the most to charge their electric cars in their homes or buildings or public places where they go.
Last solution to solve the urgent need for drivers who frequently drives their electric car with peace of mind that they will reach their destination with no problem of worrying
of exhausting their 230 miles allowance, is a short pit stop on the road for a quick replacement of their less charged electric car battery into another battery that is already fully charged battery, along with fuelling their vehicle back up tank, and quick snacks, or restroom time and what not.
Now, I firmly believed that someone out there is thinking the same way like I do, who will be interested to invest in building these kind of quick pit stop station today.
As a former owner of an electric car, I am here to tell you that the batteries are the big problem. My car was a 1981 Jet Electica that got(at best) 40 miles per charge. The minimum recharge time was 6 hours (@ 220 volts/10-25 amps) . The batteries weighed over 1000 pounds. (The equivalent fuel in gasoline is about 10 pounds, for the same size car.)
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThose lead acid batteries had to be replaced about every 2 to 3 years for over 1000 bucks. The connectiions grew loose and melted, leading to explosions of the hydrogen in the cells.
And, of course, that stops you dead until you jump over the dead battery and limp home.
And if you should happen to short a batteery (with a wrench, say) right across from it's negative to it's positive termnial, it will explode (take my word).
There were ventilation problems, too, since the batteries were, in part, within the passenger compartment, emitting H2S and other poisons.
But l drive conventional vehicles now. Maybe they can do a bit better now in the electric world, but I'll take gasoline or diesel for now, Thank You Very Much!
For many of us the problems of setting up a place to charge a vehicle will be a barrier. I will definitely not be the first in my condo association to try to get permission to make the necessary changes to the common areas that would be needed to supply power to a point near my parking space. The condo association has no rules about this, and I doubt that my state's condo laws have anticipated it either.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisMillions of city dwellers park on the street and have no permanent garage space-- they have a different barrier to electric cars.
Some of these barriers will be addressed as parking spaces at employers or in public lots gradually are equipped with charging stations.
Problems such as these will eventually be resolved in a number of different ways, but will inhibit adoption of all-electric and plug-in hybrid vehicles for a long time. It will be interesting to see how things roll out.
At last we should do away with street lighting, which apart from guiding martians serves no real or imagined purpose when people are asleep. Using electric cars does transfer the GHG problem from the tail-pipe to the power plant where retrofitted chimneys could theoretically acheive CCS. As for CCS, take a look at www.eprida.com to see the technology already devlopped by a small team of dedicated scientists.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWill Electric Cars Wreck the Grid? I would say yes if we were talking about motorbikes, but cars, well, I go for a no, same thing with hybrids, just think about having two engines in one vehicle is just pointless when it could easily just have one electric engine.
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Power's recent assessment of the green car industry
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisforecasts that eco-friendly vehicles cost too much in bad conditions to take off for a very long time. Basic economics will always triumph over do-goods, although there is the nobility of
intent. Individuals are not as willing to take out a <a title="Loving the highway, needing a cash loan" href="http://personalmoneystore.com/cash-advance/">payday cash
advances</a>cash loan</a> for one of these automobiles as you would think.Hybrid car sales aren't anticipated to pick up anytime soon, according to J.D. Power and Associates. Power
thinks that a down economy and high buy-in costs may prevent hybrid vehicles from selling well for a while. Regardless of how noble the intent is, basic economics will always win over
principle. I found this here: <a title="J.D. Power doubts that hybrids and green cars will sell well"
href="http://www.cardealexpert.com/news-information/auto-news/jd-power-doubts-hybrid/">J.D. Power doubts hybrid and green car sales will pick up</a>
Electric cars are growing faster, but wait. Hybrid automobile sales, according to J.D. Power and Associates, are never going to be very high. Power thinks that a down economy and high buy-in costs may prevent hybrid
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisautomobiles from selling well for some time. Basic economics will often trump environmental considerations. People are not as willing to take out a <a title="There’s a new type of funding in
town - Cash Advance Loans" href="http://personalmoneystore.com/cash-advance/">cash advances</a>cash advance</a> for one of these vehicles as you would think.Marketing
powerhouse J.D. Power and Associates does not think that hybrids or other eco-friendly types of vehicles will sell well. High buy in cost and bad economic conditions will keep eco-friendly
automobiles at a very low industry share, asserts Power. Basic economics will often trump environmental considerations. The proof is here: <a title="J.D. Power doubts hybrid sales will
escalate" href="http://www.cardealexpert.com/news-information/auto-news/jd-power-doubts-hybrid/">J.D. Power doubts hybrid and green car sales will pick up</a>
All the current electric cars have major problems that are too large for general acceptance.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTo gain acceptance they need to match or exceed gasoline powered vehicles and not cost more. So far they haven't come close. If they don't do that, they will never be more then a oddity.In other words its like having a <a style="color:#000000" href="http://www.carpartswholesale.com/cpw/ignition_switch.html">ignition switch</a> modified into a touch screen..how weird is that they cannot accept the changes being made
Thank you for this article. I don't know much about electric cars, so this has been a very interesting read for me. I think people who blast their music with out a <a href="http://audiotechnix.com/">sound deadener</a> are also ruining us. I can't even roll my window down with my kids in fear that the music will make them lose their hearing!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this