 and payload.)
WEAV: A cross-section of the Wingless Electromagnetic Air Vehicle, where the yellow dashes outside the craft are electrodes for ionizing surrounding air. The inside of the WEAV would house a camera, control system, battery (or some other power source) and payload.
Image: Courtesy of Ryan Durscher, Computational Plasma Dynamics Laboratory and Test Facility, University of Florida
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If a professor at the University of Florida (U.F.) has his way, the first flying saucer to grace Planet Earth's skies isn't likely to come from outer space but rather from Gainesville, where the faculty member is drawing up plans to build a circular aircraft that can hover in the air like a helicopter without any moving parts or fuel.
In other words, it will look like a UFO, but will actually be more of an IFO—an identified flying object.
The saucer will hover and propel itself using electrodes that cover its surface to ionize the surrounding air into plasma. Gases (such as air, which has an equal number of positive and negative charges) become plasma when energy (such as heat or electricity) causes some of the gas's atoms to lose their negatively charged electrons, creating atoms with a positive charge, or positive ions, surrounded by the newly detached electrons. Using an onboard source of energy (such as a battery, ultracapacitor, solar panel or any combination thereof), the electrodes will send an electrical current into the plasma, causing the plasma to push against the neutral (noncharged) air surrounding the craft, theoretically generating enough force for liftoff and movement in different directions (depending on where on the craft's surface you direct the electrical current).
The concept sounds far-fetched, but U.F. mechanical and aerospace engineering associate professor Subrata Roy plans to have a mini model ready to demonstrate his theory within the next year.
At six inches (15.2 centimeters) in diameter, the device, which Roy calls a "wingless electromagnetic air vehicle" (WEAV), will truly be a flying saucer. Theoretically, Roy says, the flying saucer can be as large as anyone wants to build it, because the design gives the aircraft balance and stability. In other words, this type of aircraft could someday be built large enough to ferry around people. But, Roy says, "we need to walk before we can run, so we're starting small."
The biggest hurdle to building a WEAV large enough to carry passengers would be making the craft light, yet powerful enough to lift its cargo and energy source. Roy is not sure what kind of energy source he will use yet. He anticipates that the craft's body will be made from a material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity. "In theory you probably should be able to scale it up," says Anthony Colozza, a researcher with government contractor Analex Corporation who is stationed at NASA's Glenn Research Center in Cleveland and helped Roy draw up the original plans for powering the saucer. The choice of a power source that is powerful, yet lightweight is "probably going to be the thing that makes or breaks it."
Roy began designing the WEAV in 2006. The following year, he and Colozza wrote a paper for the now-defunct NASA Institute for Advanced Concepts (NIAC) about the use of electrohydrodynamics, or ionized particles, as an alternative to liquid fuel for powering space vehicles. When NASA shut down NIAC in August 2007, Roy decided to continue his work at U.F.
If he's successful, Roy hopes to develop a more stable aircraft and a new form of fuel—air. Other craft that interact with the atmosphere have a problem: moving parts, whether jet engines, propellers or rotors. "My interest started when I saw inherent problems in helicopters and airplanes," Roy says. If these parts stop moving, the aircraft falls from the sky. The flying saucer, on the other hand, has no moving parts.
In theory, the WEAV would be more stable than an aircraft—airplanes and helicopters, for example—that rely on aerodynamics to provide lift. Using a plasma field, "you could produce lift in any direction, you could change direction quickly and that power could be turned on or off almost instantly," Colozza says. If the pilot wanted such an aircraft to move to the right, he or she would increase power to electrodes on the left side of the craft and vice versa for moving to the left. Electrodes on the bottom of the craft would power its lift, whereas those on top would bring the craft back down to Earth.
Assuming Roy's WEAV prototype gets off the ground next year—and that's a big if—it could prove useful in a number of ways. What makes the WEAV potentially appealing as a way to power spacecraft is that it relies on electricity (from a battery or some other power source) rather than combustion—a process that requires oxygen, which is in short supply outside Earth's atmosphere, Colozza says. Still, the WEAV's biggest fans are likely to be in the U.S. military, who would use the craft as a drone for gathering intelligence, reconnaissance and surveillance information.
Roy has been working with the U.S. Air Force Research Laboratory at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio, since 2001 to study how plasma could be used to control the flow of air—pushing air in different directions—and thereby the vehicle's movements. "If plasma (flow) is turned on the right way, I can blow air any direction I want to blow air," says Doug Blake, deputy director of the Air Force Research Lab's Air Vehicles Directorate, of the craft's ability to push air away from itself. "If I have a jet coming out of the bottom of this, I can create a helicopter with no moving parts. Things that you would use a helicopter for, you could use this for."
But this does not mean the Air Force is ready to order a fleet of Roy's flying saucers. "We have worked with (Roy) on plasma studies but there are no concrete plans in place that I'm aware of to explicitly support the development of this device," Blake says.
At this early stage, and without a clear decision on how the craft will be powered, Roy says it is unclear how much a WEAV might cost to build and operate. Still, he is optimistic. "All of the materials needed to make this aircraft currently exist," he says, "and plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the universe. If we can somehow tap into that in the future we should be able to fly anywhere."
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91 Comments
Add CommentAll right now slap two of these on the ends of a piece of wood and give me my hover board!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisCouldn't you use this form of propulsion on the skin of a lighter-than-air craft (Blimp)?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHas anyone heard of Viktor Schauberger? Lets hope Subrata Roy has figured out something that was lost. I have a feeling that the mysteries of the vortex will lead us to clean futuristic energy. Some believe that deep knowlege of the nature, and processes of Earth and the Universe existed prior to the early civilizations. Early human civilizations acquired some of this knowlege but not enough to completely understand it's root principles. Different civilizations utilized the information in different ways, resulting in odd, sometimes unexplainable similarities and differences between them. The lack of full understanding of these advanced bits of knowlege led to the decay of their original essence, balance and harmony in existance. The G.U.T. that scientists strive to unlock may need to include aspects of this "lost" information. Science, like religion tends to have certain "crackpot" subjects it will not consider for further research. Sadly, it is usually in these areas where the greatest discoveries are made.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe basis of research should be naturally balanced science. For wether we can perceive it or not there is always balance in nature.
If there are no other intelligent lifeforms in the universe, why is it so big? If humanity is unique why so much space? Our destiny/nature is to seek new frontiers. The greatest frontier of all is in front of us, yet so few of us consider it important to pursue. Humanity is its own hurdle, lets hope we clear it before we run out of our little window of opportunity(decent climate) runs out.
Best wishes, Son of the creator.
How would this work for a spacecraft? Doesn't it require air/atmosphere reacting to the electrodes to work?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIon engines have been around since the 60's. Everything I read here is more of the same... why is this project different? It's ANOTHER ion engine... nothing new, they'll build a little flying model (as before) and then get stuck on growing it. Ion engines don't carry much load. Actually, don't carry ANY load - their action field is too thin - only practical use so far is with water pumps.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHey - Build a sub" THERE you can use the engine - not in a flying saucer...
y'know, that's a good idea. Ion engines don't carry any weight, but if you install i on something that does - there you can use its thrust =) good thinking
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe saucer shaped vehicle was tried by the U.S. military many years ago. In fact they found that a saucer shaped vehicle is aerodynamically unstable.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTell that to the Aliens.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"What makes the WEAV potentially appealing as a way to power spacecraft is that it relies on electricity (from a battery or some other power source) rather than combustiona process that requires oxygen, which is in short supply outside Earth's atmosphere"
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe invention relies on having a gas to react against. The above quote is therefore nonsensical. This type of sloppy journalism is the reason I canceled my subscription to Sciam.
I thought "Flying Saucer" was just another name for frisbee.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDr. S.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAt least one statement in the article is not supported by the provided information. The author mentioned that the saucer can be used as a spacecraft. Question to the author: if the saucer will move by ionizing the surrounding air into plasma, then how exactly will that saucer be able to move outside the Earth's atmosphere?
Further, I think we will have fusion power before Dr. Roy stabilizes plasma around the flying saucer.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI recall, this same proposal was put forth 45 years ago in a 1960s article in Popular Science.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRead the last part of the article
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"and plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the universe. If we can somehow tap into that in the future we should be able to fly anywhere."
Read the last part of the article
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"and plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the universe. If we can somehow tap into that in the future we should be able to fly anywhere."
The article does mention at a couple of places that it is still a big if, if this things gets off the ground. And the agency is not confident to order a fleet of these yet. There is a touch of optimism there not a whackjob.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe article states that "the craft's body will be made from a material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity". By definition, an insulator is a poor conductor of electricity and ceramic insulator are no exception.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIn the 1980's I once heard that Plasma will take us across the universe, I remember this science boff, now a mechanical engineer he used to read so much about space travel and he told me Plasma energy is the future, But I still don't get it, how does one capture a flame, still don't get it.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"He anticipates that the craft's body will be made from a material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thiswhich is it? An insulator or a conductor?
i think,(literally) that everyone has missed the point. its not a venture into space,(yet) it is simply a source of trying to tap into a new power supply. that alone could power one home! i say bravo, for thinking outside the box.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHow can this design use "ceramic, an insulator", and then go on to describe it as a "good conductor"? How would it go into outer space, where there is not a lot oif air to ionize? Scientific American should stick to science, rather than presenting obviously flawed "research", such as this. R. McPherson
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis article decribes ceramic as "an insulator", and then describes it as a "good conductor". The article also decribes it's use in outer space, (where there are very little molecules to ionize. This article seems so poorly thought out, that Scientific American appears to be appealing to the same readership as the tabloid press.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBob McPherson, Edmonton.
Alright, so Larry Greenemeier is clearly a little dense. I am a little surprised to see so much clearly incorrect scientific reporting in Scientific American. As people have said, ceramics couldn't be both an insulator and a conductor (they are an insulator by the way, which I imagine is what you would want), this device wouldn't work in space without a gas to ionize (i.e. air), and the biggest one that I don't think any one has mentioned, at no point would this device "turn air into fuel." It turns air into lift, but the fuel is a battery, solar panel, or capacitor.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI don't know, the science seems to be pretty solid, and who knows, maybe we'll all be driving hover cars based on this technology in twenty years, but the article is really poorly written. Inexplicably so.
He should get together with the Lightcraft folks.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://www.lightcrafttechnologies.com/
Just to add a point or two on Zac's comments:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this- Plasma is indeed the most abundant form of matter in the universe, but it is extremely low density (orders of magnitude lower than air) and mainly isolated in outer space. As a physicist, I know of no demonstrated, energetically favorable way to extract energy from it. It can be used as a fuel just as much as air can.
- Where is the peer review in this article? All the sources quoted are either directly invested in the project (Roy, Colozza) or non specialists (Blake).
An awful article, even by the current standards of Scientific American.
You realize optimism has been there for decades now. After the Soviet Union broke up, we mass imported scientists with any knowledge of plasma physics and MHD from Russia, and the optimism was renewed.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhy publish something on SCIAM based on optimism alone, when it can't stand the test of scientific and technological rigour? Besides, all lunacy, besides concrete rigorous science, appear optimistic as well to any simpleton. I feel this article misleads science students who read these articles, not to mention that they are exploited by researchers to get more funding.
It would be interesting to see a free body force diagram of this device showing how "...the electrodes will send an electrical current into the plasma, causing the plasma to push against the neutral (noncharged) air surrounding the craft, theoretically generating enough force for liftoff and..."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHi!: It just won't be the first "Earth made" flying disc. Some claim that a german engineer, Strieber, built some during last days of WWII, even breaking the sound barrier, but were destroyed before allied forces arrived. While retiring in Austria, he offered to rebuild one copy at an affordable price, but failed to have support. The US also build some flying discs in the second half of XXth century, you can watch them in Youtube
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIn addition to the other glaring flaws in this "advertisement for funding" there are a few facts that need to be shared. An electromagnetically lifted vehicle was successfully created in the 1950s and 1960s by a researcher whos name escapes me at the moment. He developed what he called High Voltage Propulsion. The reason it was abandonded was the huge cable needed to get the power to the craft. Ultracapacitors may change this but the amount of power needed was enormous. The vehicle was delta shaped not saucer shaped and was very hard to steer. There was also concern about differences in air pressure zones causing it to flip or veer suddenly.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisOne of the prior posters somehow thought this article mentioned a power source for houses. That person needs to lay off the drugs. This device consumes power, not generates it.
Another thought the world is in balance naturally. I disagree. Nature is chaotic and constantly changing. That isn't balance.
this gizmos have been arround for quite a while, they are called "ionocrafts" and "lifters", there are instructions on the net to do the stationary units, but the hard part up untill now, was to make the power source light enough to fit in the craft.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI wonder if a big enough unit would look like the "drums" on the Nebuchedonezzar from the Matrix?
The person you may be thinking of is T. Townshend Brown.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThree things: A ceramic insulator is inherently not a conductor. Perhaps it should read "semiconductor," which is what I think you mean. There is no air in space, therefore this "WEAV" wouldn't work in space. Am I wrong? Oh, and air or plasma isn't the fuel in this system. The "fuel" is the energy trapped in the batteries/ultra capacitors that ionize. I'm not the first one to make these comments, but SCIAM hasn't made any changes to the article.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHe anticipates that the craft's body will be made from a material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity ....
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI thought this made no sense at first read as do some other posters but I believe it is just badly worded. Replace the word "and" with "plus" and you'll see that it might mean they'll use ceramics (a good insulator) plus/and [they'll use] a good conductor [e.g. copper].
just to get warmed up: YBCo.......if you posted here that you are fizzycyst but never heard of a ceramic that is both an insulator and a conductor I insist that you send your degree back to the institution that screwed your head up. Second, SPACE IS NOT A VACUUM!! who the heck said otherwise when cosmic dust is the structure of the very ground beneath you! Third, the latest advancements in plasma physics were made by humans trying to reach beyond their grasp, you should google plasma physics and try to reach beyond your own simpleton grasp...that very act alone should limit your psuedo-scientific posts and thereby make the earth a better place for all (a pleasant thank you is enough but send money if you like). fourth, frisbees seem stable to me but experimentation is the very essence of science so why so much malice from a handful of posters? your little pet project on over-unity transformers not get doe funds this time cause the veepee got busy with congressional hearings eh? (I love giving grief to the clowns when they deserve it.) fifth, good or bad science, thank god (or whomever as in my case) at least it is science. Yes I agree sci-am has to pick the reins back up , but I noted you still post here anyways...do not bother to explain, it is quite clear. In an effort to quantify the design criteria for such a device is, in and of itself a noteworthy task. I expect them to fail several times, much as did a couple of bros working on the kitty hawk did. And that my friends is where it stands. New materials will be required, new ways of thinking about energy will required (place two voltmeter electrodes in a flame and tell me the meter reads zero). A persistant and defiant attitude will be required but most of all, common sense will be required, unlike some of those chattering for attention in the guise of experts. Oh yeah....money will be required....duh. Personally if it was me, I would give credence to the blimp idea and strive for an electrogel encapsulating helium (or maybe, god forbid hydrogen...take that you naysayers). IN Any event, it is better to say maybe,maybe not rather than never ever. pardon my grammer I ain't got any.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI studied the UFO events from 1993. I concluded that all the events are misinterpretation even events are fabricated, few events are the work of airforce secret mission of some nation. Now Mr roy devoloping WEAV this is all depends upon plasma generation , Is it realy possible to genrete plasma by the ultracapacitor? than what would be the size of the battery. isntead of battery fuel cell could be an option. have you consider the side effects of plasma on the atmoshere, on the living thing, on communication devicess etc
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisrcdohare25@yahoo.co.in
This is a fine idea but kind of old. The original concept was a variation the "ionic wind" device where a gas (read any fluid) is moved by creating a differential charge between two regions. The gas then moves along a line between the two regions. If this occurs where one side of the flow is bounded by a flat surface then the flow parallel to that surface causes a reduced pressure perpendicular to that surface (Bernoulli effect) which, if of sufficient velocity, will cause the surface to move toward the low pressure. That's known as lift in conventional terms. Raise the voltage and current and pretty soon you have a plasma instead of just ionized gas. That's what Roy is proposing.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhen we did this in 1971, we thought that we could move enough air over an aircraft wing to lift it off the ground. This proved true in a very light test model. However, the limiting factor was the density of the moving gas layer. We were unable to create a dense enough gas flow to create the pressure differential required to lift a useful payload, a wing and it's power supply. Simply raising the applied voltage did increase flow and therefore, lift. However, before the lift increased sufficiently, flashovers and arcing induced turbulence and destroyed the lift.
We tried solving this problem by creating a magnetic field below the lifting surface. This was an attempt to crush the ionized region of the gas into a flat (or at least flatter) sheet, thus raising its density and velocity and therefore, the resultant pressure drop. This worked, sort of. The problem was that the power required to maintain adequate velocity rose sharply! The reason was electron precession. Move an electron through a magnetic field and it follows a helical path not a straight one. Why? Because the electron spin causes precession and this means force goes into useless work. (Reading about magnetohyradynamics (MHD) will help here)
The last approach tried was to populate the flat surface, with evenly spaced discharge points, and a linearly declining potential between them. A differential of 300k vdc between the outermost points with a 50k vdc differential between adjacent points. This improved performance significantly. The charged gas region was more dense, flow velocity was maintained and the observed lift was increased. Just not enough to lift the power supply. Calculations indicated that more discharge points and higher voltage would improve the effect but, not sufficiently.
This is a great concept and it will work. The problem is producing enough energy to create sufficient lift, in a package light enough to be lifted. This was a no go with 1970s technology and is still a no go with 2008s technology. Some day, well have the power but, not today.
Quite - wouldn't any spacecraft with this system need to carry air to direct?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThat is exactly right loa1992, for this to work in the vacuum of space one must supply an appropriate gas. This is most certainly NOT a practical drive for space travel. My guess is that the description of a "flying disk" makes us think of space flight when we should not.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYBCo superconductors certainly don't count, as there are room temperature superconductors have been discovered, much less plasma temperature superconductors. And while interplanetary space is not be a vacuum, it lacks sufficient material to impart non-trivial momentum to the craft.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSorry: the names of the WWII german builders of flying discs were Schriever and Miethe. Regards
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisyears ago when they were testing the saucer shape,they were trying to control it like they do a plane or a helicopter.....this new control type will be more stable,it will be like it is sitting on a blanket so to speak,with a 360 degree controllable unit.....it's a good deal....
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYears ago they were trying to fly the saucer like a plane or helicopter,it just didn't work,with this new idea the whole craft will be sitting on its own "blanket" for a lack of better term,and will be able to be controlled easily,..it's a very good idea ,
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI have heard that a person,is also developing a chip that will sit on top of your computer harddrive ,and the heat given off will actually charge the computer battery,,,,,excellent idea ,might be able to use it in the new craft...
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThose of us in the lifters group have been making this craft for years.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisalready we have flown a mouse in one.
for more on them see entries for the "ionocraft" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
and
Major De Seversky's Ion-Propelled Aircraft
http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm
George Watson
www.vivzizi.com
Those of us in the lifters group have been making this craft for years.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisalready we have flown a mouse in one.
for more on them see entries for the "ionocraft" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionocraft
and
Major De Seversky's Ion-Propelled Aircraft
http://www.rexresearch.com/desev/desev.htm
George Watson
www.vivzizi.com
Uh....
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"He anticipates that the craft's body will be made from a material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity."
Insulators are, by definition, poor conductors of electricity
This sounds like the same propulsion system that is used on the TR3B which is supposed to be the big triangular craft (2 to 3 football fields in size) that many people have spotted flying in our skies.Go to google and type in TR3B and read more about the MFD Plasma propulsion systems used on the TR3B spacecraft that can travel in and out of our atmosphere at extreme rates of speed.Maybe this is the new propulsion system that will be used in future aircraft.Sounds like a great replacement for the space shuttle and all other aircraft.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSomething will need to be invented for future aviation needs once all of the petroleum is used up.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI have always thought that the physical properties of a magnetically charged vehicle, with the abillity to change the direction of magnetic fields, would give the craft direction and speed. The knowledge of plasma properties would indeed give the earth's nations a free and "green" way also needed to produce the necessary total power consumption. I would hope that this information would not be used for any aggresive behavior.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDon Weaver.
Dr. Doug E. Haynes 360 degrees to leadership via Emancipation Proclamation
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYoure cordially invited by Dr. Doug E. Haynes, one of the top astronaut , CEOs and aircraft technician in Colorado, and his family to our next Haynes Saucer public Junteent 360 degree to leadership showing.
Juneteenth, is the anniversary designation marker commemorating the day when the last of the American slaves were finally declared free. Though Abraham Lincolns Emancipation Proclamation freed the slave two years early (1863) the disobedient slave owners of Galveston, Texas refused to respect this law until the Union Army forced their hand on the 19th of June 1865, two months after the Civil Wars conclusion. Marking the 360 degree return to leadership for a civilization of Kings and Queens who were enslave for a brief moment in history.
Come see and operate the worlds first, FAA registered, manned made UFO while the youth of Colorado compete for our Ed Dwight Googolplex lunar landing /exploration contest.
BRNA showoff their space rated hardware during cold / hot fuel flow testing safely
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe ground and air robots that were designed years ago now fit neatly into the lower aft cargo bay of the Haynes Saucer. BRNA is the only civilian spaceline operator currently displaying robotic capability of navigated down servicing ramps headed for lunar surface exploration via remote control.
The air and ground rovers can be easily navigated via remote TV monitor images retrieved initially at the Haynes Saucers right hand control panel. Audio and video data is then relayed to our companies dispatch and flight flowing operational center via internet webpage networking.
Our twin SURAMKITS are light weight but capable of producing both vertical and horizontal jet / rocket thrust vectoring energy.
All of our low / high / cold/ hot propellant / oxidizer flow testing have gone as planed for the supers sized SURAMKETS. This successful power plant performance testing has served to accelerate the company’s high altitude flight testing programs.
The public is invited to navigate our rovers from the Haynes Saucer flight deck in the same way our pilots will do in pursuit of the Google Lunar Prize competition around 2010.
Come see the leader of the civilian spaceline industry and its state of the art space rated hardware do their thing again this October during our airlines annual anniversary. The public will be giving full access to our hardware during the fourth weekend in October in either New Mexico or Colorado.
Feel free to monitor our two web sites for scheduling information and as always God bless
Sloppy writing always upsets me. How does air become fuel? In this machine, air is simply a reaction mass, not fuel. Furthermore, this proposal would definitely NOT work in a vacuum, for the same reason that a helicopter cannot fly in a vacuum.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAir is not a fuel, it is merely a reaction mass. Helicopters use air as the reaction mass to generate lift, exactly as this proposed 'ion engine' would. This machine would definitely not work in the vacuum of space, any more than an electric helicopter could fly in a vacuum. (A plasma rocket is quite a different thing, in that it carries it own supply of reaction mass.)
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAir is not a fuel, it is a reaction mass. A helicopter uses air as the reaction mass to generate lift.The proposed 'ion engine' would generate lift in the same manner. This machine would definitely NOT work in the vacuum of space, any more than an electric helicopter. (A plasma rocket is a different thing altogether, in that it carries its own reaction mass.)
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"material that is an insulator such as ceramic, which is light and a good conductor of electricity"
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishuh??
Er... it doesn't burn air or use a rotor to move air, but it still relies on moving air, correct? So this wouldn't have an application in space (unless it could double as a high velocity ion engine - in which case you bring your own atmosphere to shoot out as thrust, eh?).
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThen there is the problem of the power source for an exotic propulsion system like this. It would be nice to see some calculation of the amount of fuel required by various alternative power plants to get at least a basic guess on the payload/range of such a vehicle.
Either, I'm wrong about these points or Sciam is veering toward the shoddy and spurious reporting we've come to expect (no offense is intended - I just worry about seeing an article on getting energy from burning salt water someday)
This type of propulsion is being used on the leading edge of the B-2 bomber today , it was demonstrated over 50 years ago to the Air Force, funny how someone who has worked at Wright Patterson would suddeny come up with this
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis tech. is over 50 years old, it was demonstrated to the air force in the early 50's ,and clasified, this tech. is reported to being used on the B-2 Bomber , funny how someone who used to work at Wright Patterson has suddenly come up with this
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI^mz .... I = infinite ^ angle of mz = largest and smalles measurement programmed ga programming infinite global var; this works with a-z in science like earth = e3 = mc
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHey could you be a little more negative? we need more negativity in our world.It seems we don't have enough already!!Jeff
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe technology of converting surrounding air into fuel is the need of the hour. Well, tell me when it is ready.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWe really need this technology of converting surrounding air into fuel. Tell me when it is completely ready.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thiswuonderfull thinking..........
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisMain problem with the system is the density of air. As altitude increases, air density decreases. Therefore, the supply of air will also decrease. Since air is stated as the main fuel source, this decreasing air supply presents a problem in the form of loss of fuel! The artist's rendition attached to the article is also inaccurate, as it depicts the craft flying in outer space which is devoid of all air. Hence, no fuel for propulsion!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThere have also been groups in the past that built aircraft that operate on the same concept. However, instead of creating a plasma, they simply charged the air and then propelled it with an EM field. Though these "enthusiasts" have proclaimed that they created an anti-gravity machine, they were actually creating the first ion-propelled aircraft. Their designs were of course very light, due to the low amount of thrust provided by such a system, however the operating principles are almost identical to this WEAV. Again, as many readers have already noted, this technology is not new!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhen the space ship goes up then our satisfaction will increase and ions and molecules will come together and become bigger.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisacoyauh, the difference between ion engines used in space is that they are trying to achieve maximum ISP, which is basically mass efficiency. They have a limited amount of propellant and dump as much energy into as few ions as possible, to get maximum exhaust velocity. It is the opposite of energy efficiency. If you're in the atmosphere, then you have unlimited reaction mass and can generate much higher levels of thrust given the same power levels, since you are able to accelerate as much mass as possible, as little as possible. That is why helicopters have such huge blades, because the thrust equation says it is more efficient at generating lift from the limited HP you have. If you tried using a much smaller blade at ten times the RPM you wouldn't even get off the ground.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNothing new... all is explained there in this cartoon, published in 1983 ed. Belin:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://www.savoir-sans-frontieres.com/JPP/telechargeables/English/THE_SILENCE_BARRIER.pdf
Some have said that Subra roy submitted a patent, really ??
Hope, he will succeed...
Will have some difficulty during the lift off, once you're in air the concept might work. Initially, imagining the bottom section is saturated with negative ions, and the top section with positive ions. It takes more that to make this concept works. However, the Professor provided good theoretical explanations. I have to see in order to believe.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWill have some difficulty during the lift off, once you're in air the concept might work. Initially, imagining the bottom section is saturated with negative ions, and the top section with positive ions. It takes more than that to make this concept works. However, the Professor provided good theoretical explanations. I have to see in order to believe.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI think that it's feesable since oxygen is easily made.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis is quite feasible since oxygen is easily produced.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis invection relates to a similar one , like the ion powered lifter
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm
Like the lifter, this will produce ozone pollution, irritant to the respiratory ways, or even cancer.
Sorry Guys, Saucer technology dates back to 1943 with Dr. Georg Otto Erb and his electro-magnetic field flying saucers in which he built small prototypes for the Nazi weaponry program. In fact these saucers were captured by the americans after the war and sent back to Los Alamos and White Sands for testing. So the US had the technologhy in 1945 and I'm sure have been making great strides in their development and modernization in secret since.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisUnless this method is creating more energy than it uses, then this technology does not help out our environment at all. You have got to supply the batteries or whatever with the energy ( ie electricity or whatever).
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis requires us to use the conventional energy sources that we are using now. Boooooooooooo!
Sci-Am is touting vapoware now? Why don't you visit jlnlabs, you will see that they have been working on this for years and they have working models:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thishttp://jnaudin.free.fr/
This "professor" at University of Florida is just a plagiarizer backed up by the thousands of immoral corporate lawyers at the university. Stealing ideas is the norm in American Corporation, just watch "flash of genius"
Verrrry interesting...electro magnetic fields exist not just on earth...I wonder if all planets have their own magnetic signiture...like dialing a phone number??? Hmmmmm
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWell if you didnt know aerodynamics isnt necessary. This is used in planes this is an entirely different craft with a different propulsion system being used. This doesnt require aerodynamics to obtain lift.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNASA and the University of Florida may want to check with Battelle Memorial Institute in Columbus Ohio before going much further. My dad (a Battelle metalurgist named Carroll F. Powell) proposed this same idea to Battelle back in the '60s! His craft would have used one or more electrostatic generators to create the charged-particle plasma. Battelle had reviewed the craft as a "possible helicopter substitute that could be easily stacked for transport but that couldn't be shot down" during the Vietmam war. But as far as I know, Battelle never built one. Still, it might be wise to determine if they ever patented the concept! (P.S. Even back then, people claimed that dad's craft would be the "first flying saucer" to grace Earth's skies. More accurately, though, the approach would create a craft that "looks like a flying saucer" but it wouldn't come close to moving like some UFO reports have claimed!) Dave Powell
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYes, Whammer 2 is right. The both Nazi Germany and (later) the U.S. Air Force had saucer-shaped craft that used a single large propeller in their center. Not even close to the kind of propulsion proposed here. And it definitely became VERY unstable as soon as it left the ground, but that wasn't because of its shape... the single propeller in the center was the culprit.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBravo, Bravo finally a technological breakthrough
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWay to Go.
Michael
I think gold will be the propelling factor. As ionization occurs the gold seems to lighten.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI am thinking that this question has to be addressed using what is known . space is full of radiations that are not appreciated on earth do to our protective atmosphere. This goes int materials used in craft being able to still create a dielectric effect without having air being used for the plasma effect which is the energy that creates lift of this disc.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisUnless Super condutivity is put into play. Now we have a frame of reference to explore effect unique to supercnductivity. Then the new thought is the effects of valence without air as a conductor valence should still work with a type of lattice valence effect not needing air to interact with.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe design of flying saucers are so simple that is why attempts fail. First, they use the simple natural equations of logarithm and exponential as the shape of the craft. The power source is spherical musical harmonics that create an electromagnetic field induced by a magnetic field (yes, mutual induction). This encases the craft in an ionic plasm field that both simultaneously makes the craft antigravity and have infinite mass. Thus, time and space is both traversed instantaneously as the illusive tachyon particle.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe design of flying saucers are so simple that is why attempts fail. First, they use the simple natural equations of logarithm and exponential as the shape of the craft. The power source is spherical musical harmonics that create an electromagnetic field induced by a magnetic field (yes, mutual induction). This encases the craft in an ionic plasm field that both simultaneously makes the craft antigravity and have infinite mass. Thus, time and space is both traversed instantaneously as the illusive tachyon particle.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisno. you would not be able to add this to a blimp. you would have to be able to electrify the surface, which you would then have to add wires or a conductor surrounded by the flame retardant material that blimps are now made of. then, to power this electrification, you would have to have a power source which would have to be placed in the basket. this would also add weight to the craft. then seeing that wind can alter the shape of a blimp at least slightly when you went to electrify that area it would not be a controllable direction in which you would go. so, you are weighed down by the wires or conductive materials and the power source, and your directive abilities would not be much better. so putting this propulsion system on a blimp would be highly inefficient.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIt would be turning the atoms in contact with the surface into plasma. that is in a way taking apart an atom. Look up how turning elements into plasma works. when turned into plasma it provides force because the atoms are excited greatly. Theoretically it would not require atmosphere, but really just any matter at all.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe way that ceramic and electrical conductor are expressed in the same sentence, it could be understood that ceramic is a good conductor of electricity. Ceramics are not a good conductor,ceramics are good insulators and can be electrcialy stressed to a high potential,or used as semi-conductors depending their construction.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThat said, The concept may have merit. I have been researching electrostatics for forteen years and have good results with chambered lifters and ion thrusters. I am still working to apply electrostatic forces to create a lifting platform that can carry a pay load.
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/131690/conductive-ceramics
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRead it and weep bitches!
Ideally there should be a gold film surounding craft that displace the energy distributed through the individual electrodes. The electrodes should be many and individually processed through a circut that would alow for a range specifically gauged to present the locally distributed energy. The programming for this should intell an adjustable regulater for the gravitational aplitude and a sensery module that can tranfer energy to the location opposite of that desired for propulsion at a specific range; specificlly adjustable in the test model for maximizing stabilty of the craft. The key factor, I think, is to exclude the desire to create such a craft to be driven by a battery or solar power and get this thing nuclear, or at least testable in fashion of high engergy. The first design should not be so limitting; at least in the context of the non-public display. Plate this baby and lets see what we got.
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