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The Texas Board of Education has long promoted the teaching of creationism in schools instead of actual science. Its former chairman and current member Don McLeroy uttered this immortal line when confronted with numerous actual scientists urging that evolution be discussed accurately in the curriculum: “I disagree with these experts. Somebody’s gotta stand up to experts that are just…I think, I don’t know why they’re doing it, they’re wonderful people.”
This stuff is important nationwide. Because Texas buys so many textbooks. So textbook publishers tailor their products so that they’ll be marketable in Texas. And many places around the country get stuck with the same books.
Last week, the Texas Board revised its history standards. And it decreed that a list of people who were influential in fomenting revolutions would no longer include Thomas Jefferson. The board’s not crazy about Jefferson because of the whole separation of church and state thing. But if the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence doesn’t meet your standards, maybe it’s really time to start listening to experts.
—Steve Mirsky
[The above text is an exact transcript of this podcast.]
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101 Comments
Add CommentI sometimes wonder if government has gone to far it's grasp on education. I am beginning to think that President Obama may have the best idea yet for reforming education in this country by putting it in the hands of people who actually be held responsible for when test scores reflect poor performance. This gives this education system back to the educator and away from the government. I never thought I would see the day when a Democrat would try to take away some of the government reign. In this instance he has my absolute support. No government official knows how to educate our children better than the people who were actually trained to do so; however, with all the intervention by lawmakers they can't do what they were trained to do. Give them back accountability, give them back there right to teach.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this- Thomas Jefferson
The separation of church and state is contained in the Bill of Rights, not the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson was ambassador to France at the time, and had little to do with the Bill of Rights, other than offering support and suggestions. James Madison was the primary author, basing it on George Mason's Virginia Bill of Rights, among other sources.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThank god Steve Mirsky and JamesDavis have nothing to do with text books. Imagine the absurdities that would be taught is Texas educators listened to them.
Civil war!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDon McLeroy seems to be a fool. I think we should let him know just how much of a fool he really is.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTell it like it was! The story should not be changed to suit individual opinions of people on a textbook committee. It's no wonder our students' scores are lower than students from other countries. We're raising a bunch of spoiled, lazy, stupid people who are going to get their butts kicked by students from other countries who ARE getting an education!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGive our students the straight story! Don't alter facts. Tell them the truth! Life is hard! There's always someone who is smarter than you! You will have to compete with them to survive! Can you survive by dropping out of school and working at McDonalds? Kmart? Walmart? You better pray!
Which would be a valid point if Madison were not removed from this list. I have no idea, since I don't know what this list is. If he isn't on the list though, then that proves the authors' point.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thistechniquely Texas didn't spawn Bush. That would be Mass. Texas in unfortunately the place he calls home.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis is odd, considering that Jefferson was in no way in favour of the separation of church and state as we understand it today. For example, when the US acquired Louisiana, he was personally involved in supplying a convent with a stipend and paying the salaries of a number of priests in that territory with government funds. He was also an advocate of establish churches and paying missionaries in Indian territories, all paid with government funds.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBeing Christian has nothing to do with George W. Bush. He's an idiot, plain and simple. Please do not lump him in with all Christians because of his comment. We don't all feel the way he does.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYeah, they might start spelling "text books" as one word!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI grew up in Texas and I love it there. But I would really appreciate it if the state would stop doing such stupid, insane, and detrimental things to education.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisITS former chairman. Not "it's" former chairman. Come on guys.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTexas will not be happy until Reagan is on the $50 bill, Rove is on the $20 and Cheney is on the $100.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSteve Mirsky is the reporter, not the idiot.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYeah, God doesn't exist because of one guy _ Thomas Jefferson. Adulterated affairs. Godless living. Texas is on the front of war, a war against so called "experts". Can you tell me where they got their education from? A book without God? Excellent. Our country was actually founded on Religious freedom. God bless Thomas Jefferson, and his contribution; however, my life depends on the Lord God who created the Chesapeake bay and the life of the citizens who know and understand what religion is in our struggle for maturity.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisExcellent post!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this(from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state): the phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to the letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment to the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation"[4] between church and state.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this-----------
As you can see, while Jefferson might not have been around for the writing of the amendment, the actual phrase has been attributed to him. Thus the animosity of the fools who are against the concept.... clearly they are the type to make such a mistake (getting mad at the guy who named the policy, rather than those who wrote it) because they base their whole worldview on ignoring the facts.
I guess Texas will have to print it's own nickel now?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWill they guard to the boarder to make sure no Jefferson nickels get through?
Come to think of it, I never really knew Thomas Jefferson. Maybe I should follow Texas' lead? NOT!
Civil war? Are you kidding Hotblack?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisJust let Texas go. I'm sure they can stand against Mexicans that want Texas back on their own, right?
At least we won't get anymore dunderhead presidents like W! And wouldn't that be sweet...
another reason why religionists need to be moved to their own territory away from intelligent humans.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisFriggin texas is borked.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe Constitution clearly separates Church and State; please, Texas 'educators', don't mess with these concepts. If the present guys don't like TJ, fine, but they do not have the right to re-write history; after all, this is what the commies did right?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAbsolutely! This is a wonderful idea! The ability to rewrite educational texts should not stop at history and science. All younger generations should learn that war is peace, losing is winning, and every other non-supportable position that can be crammed into empty heads before they have a chance to actually learn how ignorant they've become. The national government spawned from Texas led the charge, and the textbook committee is valiantly continuing those errant ways. We should all be thankful that the Texas School Book Committee is leading our race to the bottom.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTo all those "slamming Texas" for the positions taken by a few of its residents, you are prejudiced, and arguably stupid. Texas is home to George Bush, as well as George Soros. Two individuals from opposite sides of the political spectrum.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisPersonally, I am greatly disappointed that so many in the United States want their religious perspectives taught in public schools. Believe in whatever superstitions that you wish to, as long as you do not force others to also change their lives to conform to a particular view.
I think that Texas is just trying to one up Kansas. If they can't beat them at basketball they can insure that their children will be less educated than Kansas. Republicans and Fundamentalists are running a race to the bottom.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHey Hey! We onlookers from other parts of the world, your friendly neighbours, have become somewhat inured to reading and hearing about this Texas sort of thing.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWe wonder when (if ever) this divisive and ignorant idiocy is going to be finally given up.
This is the sort of thing that appears on your ubiquitous scurrilous rags on show at shopping centre checkouts! Its the Texan equivalent of little green men and genius crocodiles.
However, inured or not, some of us are seriously dismayed at the continuing parade of evidence showing alarming divisions in your culture. Where is the true spirit of strength and purpose, driving toward excellence and achievement which once characterized your country, the envy of the rest of the world?
Shame on those "Directors" and Board Members who put their petty little attitudes before standards of enquiry and excellence before their responsibility for the development of young minds.
The USSR used to try changing history for their ideology, and where is that dictatorial lot now? Did their "torch" really get passed on to Texas?
Maybe they'll try Pat Robertson for President next. (With a certain female for sidekick?) What a gas!!
DDJones, you've missed the point. While Thomas Jefferson did not write the Constitution, he did write in an 1802 letter "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State." (The Constitution itself does not anywhere use this phrase). Because of his apparent difference with their point of view the state of Texas sees it as OK to exclude the author of the Declaration of Independence, possibly the greatest example in human history, from a list of "people who were influential in formenting revolutions".
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"It's" = "it is" or "it has."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSo, SciAm, please do not write, "Its former chairman ... uttered this immortal line." Being in the communication business, you should know when to use "its" instead.
I thought it was "war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength." :-) It seems George Orwell was closer to the truth than I thought.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis is just one of many decisions made by the Board. They also eliminated the words capitalism or free market since they carry negative connotations. Now it must be called free enterprise.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIn the first amendment rights curriculum it now is required to discuss the right to bear arms. For those outside the USA, the 1st amendment has nothing to do with that, that is in another place in the Constitution.
The Board made a decision not to discuss the changes with experts or teachers. They just went with their own misguided ideas.
Scary.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisLet's dru;m BOTH Jefferson (Decl of Ind) and Madison (Constit.) out of history for their narrow mindedness in fathering the Virginia Statue of Religious Freedom. "that the impious presumption of ligislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others....established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world." They also make the heretical statement that "our civil rights have NO dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry...." We do know we need religious approved physics, geometry, and especially biology, astronomy and geology textbooks.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI think "evilgenius" means Connecticut. The home of Nazi-dealing Prescott Bush and that ad-borable darling of greedy insurers, Joe Lieberman.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis textbook change was made because Jefferson championed separation of church and state?? But so did every other framer of the Declaration of Independence and signer of our Constitution. The Constitution was forced to include the Bill of Rights before most states would sign it--because otherwise the citizens would have risen up in outraged rebellion! Show me JUST ONE Founder, any ordinary patriotic citizens, who wanted the corrupt, inefficient, imperialist and un-Christian European tyranny of the entangled church and state! Those drugstore cowboys will have to amend their textbooks again and leave out Franklin, Mason, Washington, Madison, Adams, Rush--ad infinitum. Their kids will study no more great heroes, just midnight cowboys of the lowdown corrupt kind.
I got news for these Tex-ass drugged-out-on-viagra cowboys. With few exceptions (Machiavelli, Hobbes, a couple of others), just about every important thinker from Marsilius of Padua and William of Ockham in the early 14th century to our own time, including numerous church clergy and government bureaucrats, came to realize that church and state should be separated. Even Cotton Mather arrived at that conclusion and said he was ashamed of the Salem "witch" hunts. By the Enlightenment it was clear to most educated people that commingling church edicts and national or state laws was as dangerous as commingling honest bank deposits and hedge funds. (Oh? You mean the same people have been peddling both of those notions? Yes, I know. Their ultimate plan is to outlaw all forms of intelligence.)
New title of this essay should be: TEXAS IS A MESS. Or, NONSCIENCE = NONSENSE. People who live in the 21st century South and/or West--including my kinfolk and decent and intelligent friends from all the years I lived in Belle Meade, Miami, Austin, Arlington, Blacksburg, San Diego, Oxnard, etc. --have two choices. Either get out while you can still escape the fascist terrorists and tyrants who infest your states. Or else get busy with your Flit sprayers and squirt down the fatal bacterial spread of that fatal old Southern disease, white-plantation-owner intellectual indolence and ideological idiocy. Start by running for the school board. HURRY!
Thomas Jefferson did write, along with James Madison the Virginia statue for religious freedom in 1777. To wit:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"WE, the General Assembly of Virginia, do enact that no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities."
Hurrah for two of my historical heroes! Thanks.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWe should be thankful that we had such brilliant people framing the founding texts of our country. These texts were intentionally written to be devoid of religious doctrine and specifically to create a separation between church and state.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis Veteran is DISGUSTED with the entire country and the so-called Government 'For the People?' lol Is this a damn JOKE? That ended years ago! fact. It's for the Rich, connected, those willing to murder, kill, slaughter, invade, profit, and destroy others for the color of their skin, oh, and I am WHITE asshole's! We are va RACIST country, Fact. The most Racist on the planet and the most feared and we will pay. Believe me India, China, Russia, Many in the Middle East, Pakistan and our allies we stuck in the back, as we usually do as we back 'Dictators' (Noriega! Saddam! and many others when it suits us). We are Hypocrits! and those countries above will join hands and pay us back. How long can we act like COWBOYS and Idiots!? 'W' showed the world what we the people are capable of. 8 years? what the F***. I am ashamed. J. Veteran (I use to be a Proud American. No more)
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis Veteran is Ashamed of this country. We are full of Hate! How long do you think Russia, China, India, Pakistan, and the Entire Middle East stand by and allow us to run rampant, murder, kill, slaughter and threaten other countries while we PROFIT FROM SAME...? If we were being attacked and threatened and our people murdered in the Millions and we read a 'Wolfowitz Doctrine' (good ol' GOP) saying, 'World Domination at ANY COST', well, we'd be dropping Nukes on countries! They will too. Unless we STOP killing. For Resources and PROFIT! KBR, Halliburton, Blackwater, Enron, EXXON, Contractors connected to Cheney and the CIA. Read more into the Bush Family Secrets. My God, how embarrassing! Scum of the earth. How is Cheney and Riove allowed to DESTROY 5 MILLION EMAILS? We The People own them! They belonged to History and to The Attorney General as Proof about LIES, IRAQ (you stupid American's), and how they stole $3 trillion! Idiots! Seen your 401K lately. Oh, yeah, blame it on OBAMA! lol Easy. He's BLACK you Racists! The most Racist country on earth. Happy? And supposedly really Christian and God 'Fearing?' (why fear God?). Stunning. Why kill Muslim CHILDREN? This in your Bible too? Tens of thousands bombed. Wow, are we tough! Poor poor America. Now we're bankrupt and blaming it on the 'Black Guy'. My GOD! J. Veteran (Once proud now Ashamed) I tell people I am from CANADA! Thanks Morons. Follow Palin the Moron to HELL...
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisTexas only has one boarder?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisMcElroy lost the primary election this month and is serving out his term. This idiot certainly does not represent all Texans and is an embarrassment to those of us who are trying to teach the next generation of Texans. I for one do teach evolution and would never dream of minimizing Jefferson's role in our nation's history.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI am ashamed that my state supports pseudo-sciences such as creationism and history revisionism. I am personally disgusted by both of these concepts. Hints how the average Texan can influence the chowder-heads making these decisions would be greatly appreciated.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI realize this is a heretical position, but Abraham Lincoln's war to preserve the Union was, I believe, misguided. The secessionists should have been cast off. The significantly more progressive North would have left them far behind. The Texas educational textbook decision shows that would happen today if the rest of the Unites States did not band together to pull it along.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI strongly disagree with the concept of separation of church and state. Most people think it means that religion has no right meddling in matters of the state and that the state cannot endorse any one particular religion. But what it also means is that the state cannot impose itself on religion. People of faith are not constrained by the law. If their actions are consistent with their faith than that overrules the law. The result is the growth of fanatical religion that does what it pleases instead of abiding by an evidence based legal system and democratically elected governments. How many children have been abused and even killed by these religious nuts who hide behind their make-believe god whenever society expresses concern for the safety of the congregation. Christianity in the US has become no different than Islam in the middle-east. It drives American policy. It is granted special protection by the government. Its strict adherents do not respect the law of the land. The US is heading towards a theocratic fascist state. And don’t think that means being able to say merry Christmas instead of happy holidays. It means old testament law and a complete loss of freedom. Margaret Atwood got it right, read The Handmaid's Tale.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSorry, Sisko, Texas asked to be slammed - and that request was made not by a few, but by the majority who have agreed with the fools who lead them. It's not by chance that that decision was made by that textbook committee. I agree - I am prejudiced, against those who willingly choose ignorance when the facts are available to them. I will argue about my stupidity.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGuarantee's regarding the separation of church and state are our only protection (fragile as it may well be) against the very offenses you list in your post. That the concept has been used and abused for political and financial reasons do not invalidate the basic idea. The enemies of reason are becoming more subtle and hiding behind laws meant to protect us from THEM!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRemember: Being a Texan means being able to rewrite history.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRHill - Here's how the average Texan can make a difference. Vote the idiots off the board in November. Write letters in the meantime to let them know exactly what you think of this idiocy. McElroy lost his primary and won't be on the ballot. He is past reaching. Concentrate on the others. Talk to other parents and get them to write letters as well. If you aren't registered, get registered and vote. We aren't doing our kids any favors by abdicating responsibility.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGod save us from religion and especially from the born-again variety of whatever hue!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this@RHill, I can certainly appreciate your point. Canada has Freedom of Religion which guarantees the following fundamental freedoms:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.
But people are still obliged to follow the law. They don't get a pass just because they believe in supernatural beings.
I think the US is truly facing a dilemma that has the power to destroy the country. Perhaps the old North / South tensions are still unresolved. I wouldn't be surprised if the future sees the US split along the religious / political divide. Civil War Part Deux!
"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." ~ Thomas Jefferson
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI still dont understand the antagonism between science and religion. When you look back in history you find that there were a lot of scientists that contributed greatly to science, even biological science that were great believers in God. Do we invalidate Isaac Newtons contribution to science because he was obsessed with the bible and his relationship with God? Talk about revisionist history. He wrote more about the bible and what he found out about God than he wrote about science and yet that part of his life is completely ignored as if it was an embarrassment to science to even mention it. I have often read from evolutionists that if anyone believes in God he is a moron. Was Newton a moron? Was Gregor Mendel, Galileo or Einstein?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisEvolutionists say that evolution is proven beyond doubt but when you hear them discuss that evidence all they can tell you is that the evidence suggests the possibility that it could be . None of their evidence proves anything. That apparently dreaded P word is not found anywhere in the evidence they use to prove evolution.
If all it takes is evidence that suggests the possibility that it could be , there is by far and away more evidence that more than suggests the possibility that God exists and has a purpose for this earth IF anyone is willing to except it. It is intellectually dishonest to say that there is no evidence that proves that God exists. To be intellectually honest you should say that there is no evidence that you are willing to accept that proves that God exists.
The people mentioned above did accept the evidence and their science was all the better for it.
@joenn, The division between religion and science is fundamental. Religion takes everything on faith. Science takes nothing on faith. Those two positions cannot be reconciled. Your comment that some religious people have been extraordinary scientists indicates that you really don't understand science or logic. Science isn't about personalities. It is about evidence. We don't revere Newtonian science because Newton invented it. We revere Newton because he did great science. The fact that he also had spiritual beliefs is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the quality of the science he did and its impact on humanity. What he did in his spare time is irrelevant. There are fat doctors who smoke. That doesn't mean they are bad doctors.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisEvolution has been proven. You just don't understand it. Probably because you haven't studied it. Last time I checked, the scientific world doesn't hold its collective breath waiting for approval from an ignorant religious fanatic.
"To be intellectually honest you should say that there is no evidence that you are willing to accept that proves that God exists." actually that would be a lie. If you want to be honest then why not provide the proof you, and apparently only you, know so well? Or were you just lying about that? You have not studied science. Yet you make claims that you actually understand the theory of evolution enough that you can comment on its validity. That is a deliberate misrepresentation. You claim that all scientists refuse to acknowledge the solid evidence of god’s existence but have no evidence to support either assertion. Yet another fabrication. The complete lack of integrity shown by the religious nuts that post here does more damage to their cause than science ever will.
"Last week, the Texas Board revised its history standards. And it decreed that a list of people who were influential in fomenting revolutions would no longer include Thomas Jefferson. The boards not crazy about Jefferson because of the whole separation of church and state thing. But if the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence doesnt meet your standards, maybe its really time to start listening to experts."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSteve:
Very funny and so true.
Good article. Please press the issue and let's see if we can bet Texas to respond.
One thing that has been covered up by the press, was a Tea Party meeting in which one of their members pointed at the US flag and said "I hate that flag". It's time we recognize that the conservatives are part of a confederate revival, and will turn America into a second civil war like we have seen in Ireland.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWell, we know where your allegiance lies, and how much you know about separation of church and state. Do yourself a favor and Google "Jefferson +Danbury Baptists."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWell, we know where your allegiance lies, and how much you know about separation of church and state. Do yourself a favor and Google "Jefferson +Danbury Baptists."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDDJones, your logic and facts are twisted. The author does not claim that Jefferson penned the first amendment, only that the Texas board dislikes his stand for it. From Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
The idea that the existence of God can be proven is not theologically sound. St. Paul says that we are saved by faith. If God is proven then faith is meaningless. Ergo -- faith and science are irrelevant to each other, except that God probably expects us to use our brains to understand the world as best we can. Darwin did so.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI am not suggesting that we privatize education in a for profit way, but maybe there should be a little more separation from politics and education. I have no idea how we could do it, but I am sure some smart people can figure out a better way of what goes into the textbooks.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI've been to Texas. As they say, Ignorance is Bliss. Texas is lots and lots of Bliss.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI've been to Texas. As they say, Ignorance is Bliss. Texas is lots and lots of Bliss.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI've been to Texas. As they say, Ignorance is Bliss. Texas is lots and lots of Bliss.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this@Robert Schmidt
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI think it is safe to say that you don't know me. I am not a scientist that is true but I have had a life long interest in science. I started reading Scientific American when I was about 10 and a lot of what I know about the sciences I learned from this magazine. It has been a life long hobby to keep up as much as I can with what's going on. I was an evolutionist when I started out in life because that is all I knew and was taught. It was the science that I was learning, a lot of it from this magazine, which convinced me that there had to be a god to account for all of the order that one sees. Yes, I am sure that chaos theorists and others can say that apparent order can arise from randomness but that still doesn't account for the seamless integration of life in the environment. So yes, I was where you are in my belief in evolution. But in true science one has to follow the evidence where ever it goes whether one wants to go there or not. That evidence led me to God. I am neither a religious fanatic nor am I ignorant about what science is about. I am someone who accepts the evidence I see.
You say that the division between religion and science is fundamental. Religion takes everything on faith. Science takes nothing on faith. It is interesting to note that scientists still don't know how life started. They still don't know how the molecular machinery that makes life happen began or how it sustained itself until microbes came to be. You have to assume that somehow all this happened without god and that while you don't know how now, you will at some point. You have to accept on faith that the evidence is out there. One definition of faith is belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. It seems that it takes more faith to believe in evolution then in God.
Everything from the way the universe is to the human condition can be explained when one understands that God exists. There is no need to hope that the evidence will be found some day. Its right there in front of you if you just look.
Physicists and astronomers no longer need to search so far away for other worlds! The Texas Board of Education is clearly an inhabitant of one in their Home State. Space travel would not be necessary for field exploration. If carefully examined, it could provide remarkable data on the illusionary nature of reality within their culture. Social scientists should also have a marvellous time with theoretical constructs regarding the effects upon their young. Related ceremonials and middens could be examined. The relationship between midden findings and the bovine bull population should elicit some extraordinary statistical correlations regarding the true structure of their world.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisJust think now of the wider effects of this discovery! All the home grown belief system addicts and their money gathering power hungry leaders will show clear signs of other worldly intoxication and emulation. There will be outcry for resonant structures in the Earth world in order to provide welcome for the inevitable inter-cultural contacts.
Of course, there is a real need to escalate vigilance against Near Earth Orbital collision from this newly announced (and anticipated) body. The deleterial effects of such an impact are likely to prove very damaging to the continued (albeit struggling) existence of the prevailing American role as an important and leading nation in the real world at large.
In short, learn to pray buddies, but not like those guys. (PTL and pass the ammunition; or is it "Hope"?) They mean business and they are deluded. They won't go away easily. Truth is not their long suit either and deafness to reason is endemic. With friends (teachers?) like that, who needs enemies?
Was it not an American who said "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance"? Better watch your own house too.
Many thoughtful friends and neighbours to the North watch you all with some considerable trepidation and sadness.
"There was a time on Earth, when Gods did walk with men,
But priests then came between us, and trouble started then". (With apologies to Talbot Mundy, who got it right).
To VLegacy. I thought that the Founding Fathers (and Mothers) came here to escape religious persecution. It was not so much religion per se as RELIGION IN POWER THROUGH ROYALTY. In other words, religion as the power of state. Persecution and discrimination are clearly the bedfellows of such an arrangement. Freedom of religion means freedom to hold and/or practice religious beliefs. It does not mean freedom to oppress in the name of religion. Inter-religious conflict should not be an element of secular power, so that is where the separation of church and state should securely rest. Go to church or mosque or synagogue if you like, but don't push it on anyone who thinks differently.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisOne can be religious and a statesperson at the same time, providing this rule is respected and maintained. Jefferson may well have had religious inclinations, but he saw where power and religion do not bode well. If you don't believe me, go to places like Madamme Tussauds in London where you can see the incredible engines of torture and cruelty employed in the service of religious intolerance. It may well be that you do understand this, but I thought it worth a highlight or two. I did find your comments to be of interest. I thank you.
Thank you Steve Mirsky. If Thomas Jefferson "... the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence doesnt meet your standards, maybe its really time to start listening to experts." or time to stop listening to the Board of Texas. I hope that eventually, as in the case of Weapons of Mass Destruction, this kind of "rewriting" history will be seen for what it is, misinformation, outright lies and lies of omission.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhether or not Tom Jefferson was in favor of the separation of Church and State, it's vital to modern govt. There are many religions and I don't want to come under the legal rule of any of them - not Christian fundies, nor Hare Krishnas, nor Muslims. I'd be very disturbed if Sharia were the legal law of the land in some parts of the US!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI have tonight emailed the following letter to the Texas State Board of Education (sboesupport@tea. state.tx.us):
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDear SBOE Members,
Tonight marks a milestone, of sorts, for me & I publicly professed shame for being a Texan! I made this regrettable revelation after reading and participating in an Internet blog , hosted by the widely read publication SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, entitled Texas Messes with History . It is here that I learned how Texas textbooks, selected by your board members, sway and influence the entire industry and indeed, the quality of education throughout our great country. A review of the various Board Member statistics and qualifications at the TEA-SBOE website certainly revealed a well balanced, qualified and educated array of Texans. It was not made clear if there is some committee or sub-group of the 15 member board directly involved in the textbook/curriculum selection process so I shall address my concerns to the entire body.
Creationism there is no validated evidence supporting a supernatural entity or process involved in the genesis of our physical universe or the inhabitants therein. Until evidence, supported by the application of peer reviewed scientific methodology is produced, inclusion of these theories or even hinting at their existence has no place in a science curriculum. I noted with interest that four board members hold degrees in science and/or science education. To these members I address a plea for you to educate, explain and defend the principals of the scientific method to the other members so that the flawed concepts of supernatural creationism are not allowed to corrupt the minds of our young people. Placing these fanciful, wish fulfilling ideas alongside scientifically valid explorations into the origins and nature of our universe offers no educational value and hints at the political and monetary influences that corrupts and misguides you from your true mission. Additionally, creationism clearly violates the separation of church and state concept that humanity struggled for thousands of years to perfect, realize and integrate into the framework our uniquely free and just society.
Revising History history, like science is a search for truth. Certainly, the histories taught in American public schools for decades are themselves a product of corrections and revisions accumulated over time, with the goal to produce as accurate a record of past events as humanly possible. The new goal seems to be to change, modify, exclude and revise our traditional history texts, not for the sake of accuracy or information but rather to manipulate the forming minds of our youth to meet some darker, more sinister agenda. The INTENT of this new agenda seems to be to apologize for Americas part in world history and to minimize or exclude the effects and importance of free thinkers amongst our Founding Fathers. The EFFECT of this agenda will be to produce future generations of Americans without the strength of pride, courage or education to continue our positions as world leaders. It remains unclear who authors this agenda, but FUTURE history will surely label them as traitors to our Nation and violators of the public trust!
I beg the members of this body to remain true to whatever oaths or conscience guide you and carefully consider the impact your decisions make, not only in Texas, but the country in general and ultimately the world. I shall certainly use my vote and whatever influence I can garner, to help ensure future members of the Texas State Board of Education is comprised of members dedicated to the exclusion of irrationality and revisionism in our science and history textbooks.
Best Regards,
RHill
You sir are a dunce!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThank you Steve Mirsky for shining the light of truth on these very dangerous people. The person that made the snide comment about you needs an enema. Does he really believe that man and dinasours were on our earth at the same time? PLEASE........
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis shamefull our history is what are country is about.This conservative baloney has no place in our schools.this what they do in comunist countries.Write history the way percieve it.Over the years i have lost my religion because of how close the christion church has become with the repubican party.I think teachers should throw these books in the trash.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisCorperations are people now.thanks to the supreme court.now the texas board of eduacatin is rewriting our history.How sad 1984 has arrived.When teachers recieve these books they should trash them!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI believe he's had an enema and wiped his Bondwan afterwords. Are "dinasours" a new treat they give you if you take your medication???
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBush was born in CT, not MA. His grandfather was a Senator from CT. Texas claims Bush is one of them. Drive on I-10 through Midland and you might see a billboard glorifying their "in-tah-lect-ual" son, George W. Bush, their savior and king. It's like they are worshiping W, for some strange reason--probably ignorance.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisGood Grief!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI know that Bush was placed into a situation that, aside from Pearl Harbor, no President has ever faced. The population extant during FDR's response to the Japanese attack were made of sterner stuff than the liberal, whiny, spineless "intelligensia" finger pointing traitorous pricks we have now-a-days. I don't hear much in the way of solutions from any of you trite, book bending smart guys. I suggest you stick to inventing better deoderants or up-lifting bras .... leave the politics and "post game analysis" to people that actually OWN a pair of testacles.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIsnt the pulbic school system in place to educate and prepare our children to advance and achieve their goals as adults?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thislf Perhaps if a Theological edication is more relevant to your families dynamic, enrole your child in a non public school?
Or conversly as Parents if we wish or children to have a rounder point of view , we should be exposing them to those ideas in the home. Changing history I believe takes away the validity of the educational system when those children discover they have been misled knowingly by a system ment to enable them with good tools as adults. Personaly I say shame on the chioces they made to exclude a profound achievment of a individual in the development of western history.
RHill - Thank you for the letter to the board. I will send one with similar sentiments and urge all Texans who agree to also write the board.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDo we want a citizenry that lacks a basic understanding of our history? Do we want a citizenry ignorant of a unifying principle of Biology? If the board remains recalcitrant, then I hope the text book authors and publishers will NOT give the Texas Board of Education a line item veto. If they put immediate profit aside, they could stand together and tell the board "NO" on the basis of the National good.
Our job as citizens is to decide if we embrace the 21st century and train the next generation to compete internationally, or bury our heads in the sands of religious dogma and let the world pass us by.
Religion doesn't belong in the science classroom. It is not science and no amount of posturing will make it so. As a person of faith I can say this without prejudice. Those who ask for "proof" don't understand science. Only math has proofs. Science has theories and laws which stand as long as no contrary scientific evidence disproves them. Theories can be proven false, they cannot be proven true. Evolution is one of the most intensely tested theories in existence. After 150 years it has mountains of supporting evidence which shows no sign of stopping. I read several journals and it is not possible to keep up with the papers that are published on a daily basis that support Evolutionary Theory.
There is a place for religion in history books. The basis for separation of church and state should be discussed in the context of the experiences of the European settlers who fled religious persecution in their native lands.
The focus on New England history has always disturbed me. I would hope there is room for some Native American history, the African American experience, and the history of the Hispanic culture in the American Southwest. Such discussions could include the age and religious beliefs of these cultures. For example: How many students outside of Texas and California know anything about the Catholic mission trails? How many outside of New Mexico know the Spanish established the Kingdom of New Mexico in 1540, build a capital in 1598, and moved that capital to Santa Fe in 1610? The Mayflower did not arrive until 1620.
Obviously there is room for improvement. Discarding Thomas Jefferson from the history texts is clearly not one of them!
I am sorry but this article doesn't smell right. Thomas Jefferson is a hero of the political right, the strict constructionists that abhor progressive judical activism. Jefferson is often reviled as a slave owner on the left, as a man that didn't live up to his ideals of equality. The article did not contain any documenting quotes as to the reason why the Texas School Board wanted to delete Jefferson as a revolutionary hero. My sense is that there is much more to this story than is being reported here. Could it be an extension of the reaction to the School Boards stand on creationism? Are some assumption being made as to the reasons? We don't have enough information here to settle this. Tell us more. Could it be that the School board is just bowing to pressure from their rather large African American constituency? I thought I would speculation to conjecture.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThose nut jobs in Texas give America a bad name!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thiswell I wonder when in times to come a school board will move to strike the Bushes from world history ?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe move of Texas Ed. Board has made a decision that reflects an anti intellectual bias that is changing history to a modern mythology. Changing the words changes meaning and changing the meaning offers a different story. Denying reality as in words or people of history is a dishonest and political act that will destroy this young and venerable country. As a European born man and a graduate of Yale Divinity School, I am saddened in any Texan that votes to deny the pursuit of Truth in any forum. Self hatred is manifested in many forms and for the life of me I do not know why Americans continue this self destructive behaviour. Knowledge is acquired through investigation and the dialectical and not from denial or political correctness. Freedom comes at a price and this act of the Texas Education Board demonstrates the not all people are willing to pay the price. Lastly, the Texas Education Board has made an anti-intellectual move that denies any cognizancee of the accumulated wealth of experience of other nations who were tempted to deny their history and but chose to claim their past and part of who they are today. Texas will not know where to go in the future because it will fail to remember from whence it hailed.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWho is our role model? Communist Soviet Union? Let's get real!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHere here! And kids from other countries know their history very well thank you very much! I teach in an international school in The Netherlands, and the Dutch are known for knowing everyone's history really accurately. What is happening in the US is maddening. We should begin a movement of separation of education and state- government has no business making decisions about the content of curriculum!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThomas Jefferson was NOT removed from the study of American History. He was replaced in the study of World History by more important figures.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBut why let facts get in the way of your bias?
There is no separation of church and state in the Bill of Rights. That phrase actually came from a letter written by Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists. Read your First Amendment again. There is also no implicit right to privacy in the Bill of Rights.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhy didnt' you mention that Don McLeron was voted out and the Tx Senate refused to seat him on the Board, nor has the Board ever voted for the creationist philosophy. Of course, that doesn't mean that there were not elements that supported it. You pod is a 1/2 truth. What else have you written that is misleading, inaccurate or incomplete?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAnd why is SciAm waxing in on a history issue?
George never was a man to say that he would "try" to do something. But they are still trying. And islamic morons are still cutting-off hands and making the lives of women - and most others - a misery. Morons fight. Innocents pay the price. Sad isn't it. What would you do if one was about to attack you ? - not that you are likely to have a warning.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAh blame SATAN !!!!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWooooooooh ! SCARY !!!
Just watch as Texas schools loose their accreditations and Texas highschool students loose their chances of getting into top-rank universities (perhaps even include UT)
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSeems to me that what needs to be done here, is that school boards in other states across this country, need to band together and form a coalition that denies texass having so much influence in determining textbook content. I personally don't care how much texass dumbs-down their own little redneck students, but to make their religious denialism part of others' lives, is very sad and should be stopped.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe constitution itself also states that no religious test would be conducted as necesasry qualification to public office. And of course the 1st ammendment
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe text book companies are as much to blame. So what, if Texas orders a lot. These book companies are selling out to the rest of the country by catering to them. If the other 49 states were to chastise them for there unprofessionalism, maybe they would print true science, instead of the ox-cart era garbage that Texas wants.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSo I take it Texas has no interest in producing any scientists, doctors, engineers, etc. Have fun with that.....
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisDidn't the US of A steal Texas from Mexico? Can't you just give it back? Afterwards, would it not make sense to rejoin the U.K. (as a colony, obviously) and have a Monarch in charge again, thus avoiding all these problems you seem to have with Presidents/Governors/etc...etc.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisCome on back, we still love you all.........well quite a lot of you....and there's not many other countries in the world who would say that.
Kindest regards from Scotland (UK for all the American readers who probably couldn't find their way over the state line without a GPS).
Bill H.
You know, as a 4th generation Texan, I'm not aware of them teaching creationism in our schools. As a matter of fact, I know that when I was in school and my son (4 yrs ago) was in school they were specifically denied teaching creationism.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAny article with a huge mistake such as that, in my opinion, is suspect.
Don Powell
Anyone who says that Thomas Jefferson was not in favor of the separation of church and state could possibly use a bit of education on the subject. http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this>He was also an advocate of establish churches and paying missionaries in Indian territories, all paid with government funds.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThat's not promoting religion, that's getting rid of 'the Indian problem'.
Most Texans are embarrased by both Bush presidencies. Sr. for lying about "no new taxes" and Jr. for lying about WMD's, outrageous spending and TARP. I would hope they would both immigrate back to Maine or Massachusetts...just as long as they leave.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisYou are missing the point, friend. The very phrase "separation of church and state" was coined by Thomas Jefferson in his personal writings. He specifically referred to the necessity of a "wall of separation..."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIt just so happens that he also wrote the DoI.