The German vessel RV Polarstern cracks through the ice in the Antarctic on one of hundreds of voyages to map sea creatures for the Census of Marine Life....[More]
POLARSTERN:
The German vessel RV Polarstern cracks through the ice in the Antarctic on one of hundreds of voyages to map sea creatures for the Census of Marine Life. Data from voyages like this allowed scientists to compile a list of hundreds of identical species that live in Arctic and Antarctic waters, but possibly nowhere in between. No one had realized so many creatures, many of them microscopic, have a mysterious bipolar link.
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J. Ziegler, Census of Antarctic Marine Life
CLIONE LIMACINA:
Clione limacina is one of the centimeter-long creatures that live both in the Arctic and Antarctic. The shell-less snail resembles an angel, but hidden within its mouth are six feeding arms and a tongue that looks like a chain saw....[More]
CLIONE LIMACINA:
Clione limacina is one of the centimeter-long creatures that live both in the Arctic and Antarctic. The shell-less snail resembles an angel, but hidden within its mouth are six feeding arms and a tongue that looks like a chain saw. It uses this apparatus to reach into the shells of other snails and devour them. Scientists are puzzled by how specialized ice-water creatures like these could have crossed warmer waters to reach the opposite point on the planet.
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Kevin Raskoff, Monterey Peninsula College, Census of Marine Life
DIPHYES DISPAR:
Scientists argue whether Diphyes dispar is a single animal or a colony of specialized single-celled creatures that serve the whole. The creature's hood houses long tentacles adorned with blossomlike hooks to catch other plankton....[More]
DIPHYES DISPAR:
Scientists argue whether Diphyes dispar is a single animal or a colony of specialized single-celled creatures that serve the whole. The creature's hood houses long tentacles adorned with blossomlike hooks to catch other plankton. When it's done fishing, it reels in its hooks and swims away.
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Russ Hopcroft, University of Alaska Fairbanks, Census of Marine Life
MIMONECTES SPHAERICUS:
Male Mimonectes sphaericus , jellyfish hunters of Earth's two poles, have antennae that look like bullhorns. Some scientists think creatures like these migrated across the oceans during the last ice age, 18,000 years ago....[More]
MIMONECTES SPHAERICUS:
Male Mimonectes sphaericus, jellyfish hunters of Earth's two poles, have antennae that look like bullhorns. Some scientists think creatures like these migrated across the oceans during the last ice age, 18,000 years ago. The proof could lie in the genetic variations among species on opposite hemispheres.
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Russ Hopcroft/UAF/CoML
LIMACINA HELICINA:
One of the stranger bipolar creatures, Limacina helicina , aka the sea butterfly, spins a mucus web from the propellerlike feet that protrude from its shell....[More]
LIMACINA HELICINA:
One of the stranger bipolar creatures, Limacina helicina, aka the sea butterfly, spins a mucus web from the propellerlike feet that protrude from its shell. Once it traps enough algae it digests the mucus, along with its catch.
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Russ Hopcroft/UAF/CoML
HETEROKROHNIA INVOLUCRUM:
Heterokrohnia involucrum , a type of arrow worm, is known to live everywhere in the ocean, even at the poles. According to most definitions, it's therefore not bipolar....[More]
HETEROKROHNIA INVOLUCRUM:
Heterokrohnia involucrum, a type of arrow worm, is known to live everywhere in the ocean, even at the poles. According to most definitions, it's therefore not bipolar. Instead it's labeled cosmopolitan. Scientists suspect that most bipolar species exist at other latitudes but haven't been found. An arrow worm uses hooks on its head to grab an unsuspecting passersby, then quickly swallows it whole. The worms are transparent, so under the microscope scientists can watch their prey being digested.
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Russ Hopcroft/UAF/CoML
GLOBIGERINA BULLOIDES:
Kate Darling, a marine biologist at University of Edinburgh, genotyped the rDNA of Globigerina bulloides and two other species in 2000, the first time a scientist used genetics to verify bipolarity among foraminifera....[More]
GLOBIGERINA BULLOIDES:
Kate Darling, a marine biologist at University of Edinburgh, genotyped the rDNA of Globigerina bulloides and two other species in 2000, the first time a scientist used genetics to verify bipolarity among foraminifera. Species like this seem to appear out of nowhere to feast on algae blooms during the spring. "It's indescribable just how fantastic it is to look down a microscope. It's pretty similar to looking at Ghostbusters. You never know what's going to shuffle into view next," Darling says.
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http://dorsetmicroscopy.blogspot.com/
GAETANUS BREVISPINUS:
Gaetanus brevispinus is another cosmopolitan species, but occurs most commonly in the shallow waters near the poles. Closer to the equator it can be found as deep as 3,000 meters....[More]
GAETANUS BREVISPINUS:
Gaetanus brevispinus is another cosmopolitan species, but occurs most commonly in the shallow waters near the poles. Closer to the equator it can be found as deep as 3,000 meters. This species may serve as evidence for another theory of bipolarity: Scientists think that species traffic between the poles along a deep-sea conveyor belt known as thermohaline circulation. Along these currents, temperatures never rise above 4 degrees Celsius, allowing these ice-water creatures to survive the entire journey.
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Russ Hopcroft/UAF/CoML
LANCEOLA CLAUSI:
Not much is known about Lanceola clausi other that it sometimes scavenges food and often ends up as fish fodder. "We know less than one percent of what lives below the upper 200 meters of ocean compared to everything above it," says Russ Hopcroft, project leader of the Arctic portion of the Census of Marine Life....[More]
LANCEOLA CLAUSI:
Not much is known about Lanceola clausi other that it sometimes scavenges food and often ends up as fish fodder. "We know less than one percent of what lives below the upper 200 meters of ocean compared to everything above it," says Russ Hopcroft, project leader of the Arctic portion of the Census of Marine Life.
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Russ Hopcroft/UAF/CoML
BIPOLAR SPECIES:
This chart divides bipolar species by their phyla. The gross majority are arthropods, insects of the sea whose exoskeletons protect their soft insides....[More]
BIPOLAR SPECIES:
This chart divides bipolar species by their phyla. The gross majority are arthropods, insects of the sea whose exoskeletons protect their soft insides. The census is still tweaking the exact number of species. The final figures will come after every Arctic and Antarctic species is genotyped, a huge undertaking that began last year. Polar scientists hope their data will bring them closer to understanding the often surprising climatic and biological links that reach across the entire planet.
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Census of Marine Life
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1. Guillermo57
06:45 PM 2/22/10
The opening paragraph of this article gives a hint as to what the explanation may be. The whales that migrate from one polar region to the other could act as a transport means for the bi-polar organisms.
3. fisixisfun
in reply to Joeylowsac02:16 AM 2/23/10
The problem with your idea is that the last time there was a "Snowball Earth" or anything similar was 600 million years ago, and these creatures are supposed to be no more than a few generations apart.
The 4°C current (the heaviest possible water) that circles the globe and crosses the equator is plenty of mechanism for me. Anything else is unnecessary.
Birds, whales, currents and of course, HISTORICAL HUMAN ACTIVITY! The fact hat there are ships that have been to both poles, shipping lanes in the vicinity of both poles and the fact that as Jeff Goldblum said it best "life will find a way..."
I do not think something was mentioned about their sensitivity or adaptability to warm waters. A lot of crazy stuff happened in the past, and they might have been swept off the north pole all the way to the south pole. Like a baby gorilla in a reserve and its inability to cope with the outside world after-wards, those creatures could have remained in the north pole and got used to the cold water and got "Aqua-hyperthermophobic" with time..Anyone..Support..??
I simply LOVE scientific debate...but what occurs here doesn't count. We have a bunch of nobodies producing potential solutions based entirely intuition and no empirical evidence.
Here's a thought: are you a marine biologist? If not, then your hypothesis probably isn't valid, or has already been considered and/or tested by someone who does know what they're doing. I find it hard to believe that of the hundreds of scientists mentioned in the article involved in finding out the reason for the existence of bipolars, not ONE of them has considered "transport on larger animals and/or human vessels" as a possible solution.
Goodness, it's just like the whole AGW "debate"....you get plebeians milling about shouting such inanities as "the sensors on the ground are in areas that are hot!" Really? You don't think the people who put them there thought about that? You don't think they accounted for that? You don't think anyone bothered to check temps from space via satellites to find if they correlated? (which has been done, and they do)
Look, I get it, you want to be involved. That's fantastic. But, one of the first things you need to do in order to properly get involved in the debate is learn some basic critical thinking skills.
9. ProfessorJWN
in reply to Spoonman04:07 PM 2/23/10
Spoonman,
It is a good thing Tom Edison didn't agree with your theory, or we'd be in the dark like you.
How about Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer? Without them, much of what we take for granted would likely not exist.
Just because a person doesn't have a PhD (Piled High and Deep) behind their name (I nearly do for what it's worth) doesn't mean they are nobodies. On the contrary, much of the innovation we have today was created by similar folk.
Modern Medicine (that is a laugh) is filled with "book smart" people produced from an elitist controlled monopoly of medical schools.
These "geniuses" are wholly or nearly wholly ignorant of herbal and homeopathic medical cures, yes cures for many diseases. Rather than treat cause of disease, they treat symptoms and benefit from pill pushing.
Eggs are good for you, eggs will kill you.....mantra is the same.
BTW wasn't it a "trained researcher" who was recenbtly found responsible for totally falsifying "studies" for medical research for "big pharmacy"?
Part of the reason that science is so static and unimaginative is the fact that the "regular guy" has been effectively cut out of the discovery process.
Shoemaker-Levy 9 was discovered effectively by amateurs astronomers, HP was founded in a garage, for goodness sake, even Bill Gates was a college dropout.
And what about Global Warming, or Climate change, or as it turns out "Much ado about nothing". That too was produced by "Professionals", who were wrong. Many "nobodies" could tell you that, DUH.
Until a person knows EVERYTHING, one can always learn from others.
Even when people might be mistaken or poorly informed, true intelligent discourse and an exchange of ideas benefits everyone involved.
When we fail to consider even the smallest voice, we are doomed to our own prejudice and ignorance.
It is a good thing Tom Edison didn't agree with your theory, or we'd be in the dark like you.
How about Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer? Without them, much of what we take for granted would likely not exist.
Just because a person doesn't have a PhD (Piled High and Deep) behind their name (I nearly do for what it's worth) doesn't mean they are nobodies. On the contrary, much of the innovation we have today was created by similar folk.
Modern Medicine (that is a laugh) is filled with "book smart" people produced from an elitist controlled monopoly of medical schools.
These "geniuses" are wholly or nearly wholly ignorant of herbal and homeopathic medical cures, yes cures for many diseases. Rather than treat cause of disease, they treat symptoms and benefit from pill pushing.
Eggs are good for you, eggs will kill you.....mantra is the same.
BTW wasn't it a "trained researcher" who was recenbtly found responsible for totally falsifying "studies" for medical research for "big pharmacy"?
Part of the reason that science is so static and unimaginative is the fact that the "regular guy" has been effectively cut out of the discovery process.
Shoemaker-Levy 9 was discovered effectively by amateurs astronomers, HP was founded in a garage, for goodness sake, even Bill Gates was a college dropout.
And what about Global Warming, or Climate change, or as it turns out "Much ado about nothing". That too was produced by "Professionals", who were wrong. Many "nobodies" could tell you that, DUH.
Until a person knows EVERYTHING, one can always learn from others.
Even when people might be mistaken or poorly informed, true intelligent discourse and an exchange of ideas benefits everyone involved.
When we fail to consider even the smallest voice, we are doomed to our own prejudice and ignorance.
The greatest scientific discoveries of all time are mostly attributable to "amateurs."
This is a discussion form, not a refereed scientific forum. Furthermore, SA is written specifically for lay people. I, for example, do not turn to SA as a primary source for my professional specialty, but am fascinated by all the other, wide ranging articles. Apparently others share this view - that's why SA exists!
On a separate note, citing AWG to illuminate the folly of basic questioning is decidedly ill-considered now. Whether or not AWG is real is but one question; whether the issue in some shoddy science is another (the ramifications of AWG and what, if anything society should do about it are two more good questions).
Indulge your fellow readers. Educate where you are able. Do NOT assume that because you thought of an unaddressed question that it must therefore be obvious to the investigator and have been intentionally omitted as irrelevant.
By the way, I am NOT a marine biologist (or any kind of biologist; I can generally pass a Turing test, though & will leave you guessing whether I am biological). I, like you suggest, think hitchhiking on large animals, especially whales seems unlikely. There, I have offered a hypothesis, but leave testing it to others. I have to get back to my day job.
13. goldminor
in reply to ProfessorJWN06:00 AM 2/24/10
Well said, JWN. No matter which end of the spectrum, an individuals intelligence may rest, there is always the potential for an insight to be found that otherwise might not be easily observed by others.
We just have to remember that the bilge compartment of a ship can transport water (and what it�s inside) around over the world. The ships have been rounding for thousands of years all over the world in different seas and oceans, I know is very simple but it is posible. Cuoreangelino.
And I'm pretty sure the reason that the ship/large-mammal idea wasn't mentioned in the article is that both mammals and ships are substantially hotter than 4°C. I mean, if these cold water organisms could survive on/inside mammals (which should be slightly bellow 37°C, or whatever the body temperature of a whale is) or inside ships (which I would expect are well above 4°C even at their coolest), then what would have prevented them from just crossing the oceans outside of the thermohaline circulation? And why wouldn't marine biologists have seen them already doing so?
Tons of animals piggy-back on ships/large-mammals (the zebra mussel is causing problems in my neck of the Earth because of this); it's super obvious, and I'm sure the marine scientists thought about it.
In this case, I'm going to have to agree with spoony up there (even if he was way too abrasive). The people who study this stuff aren't stupid, and even if one or two of them are, there are enough smart ones to see the forest for the trees.
I'm not saying that amateurs can't have an effect on science and technology, but it's getting rarer, and you have to be careful what you mean by "amateur". All the examples that ProfessorJWN mentioned (i.e. Edison, Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer) were either inventors (and thus not scientists who enhanced theoretical knowledge within their field) or were straight-up scientists (I think everyone but Edison had a university education).
You'll notice that those who do good work as amateurs never disregard the hard-won knowledge of science.
18. Gord Davison
in reply to Brian H12:01 PM 2/24/10
A good possibility but one still needs to estimate the probability of survival for these species. Something tells me that they are unable to survive this journey. But I don't know that.
This may be wayyyy out there but what if they where bacterium from whean the earth was a ball of hot mud? As similer species would be all over the earth and might of had parreal evolution at the poles as the earth cooled down. As i said a crazy way out there theory but a theory nevertheless.
Parallel and convergent evolution both refer to cases where different species wind up with similar traits, but divergent DNA. That’s not the case here since the organisms have extremely similar DNA. So no, it’s not parallel evolution, by definition.
22. CaptainPlanet
in reply to ProfessorJWN04:23 PM 2/24/10
Professor JWN definitely has a valid point that everyone is allowed to come up with their theories. Again Spoonman and Danshil are right that many of the ideas we've come up here with in the forum might have already been tested by the experts. Who know Dr.Darling & co may actually go through this forum and find some idea they just overlooked. So just for the fun of discussing Science & the possibility of discovery lets continue with our ideas. Here's my idea, aliens mix the species from the two poles by using their special transporters just to confuse us! On a serious note I agree with Dr.Darling that DNA or RNA sequencing of these species will tell a lot...so we should wait for it.
P.S. For those who thing global warming or climate change is cock and bull story...well please read this article. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/Signs-Of-Global-Warming.aspx Even now if you don't think climate change is for real...well I hope you'll atleast agree that polluting the environment is not good, so don't believe in global warming just try to minimize pollution, Mother nature will be thankful to you. :)
Professor JWN definitely has a valid point that everyone is allowed to come up with their theories. Again Spoonman and Danshil are right that many of the ideas we've come up here with in the forum might have already been tested by the experts. Who know Dr.Darling & co may actually go through this forum and find some idea they just overlooked. So just for the fun of discussing Science & the possibility of discovery lets continue with our ideas. Here's my idea, aliens mix the species from the two poles by using their special transporters just to confuse us! On a serious note I agree with Dr.Darling that DNA or RNA sequencing of these species will tell a lot...so we should wait for it.
P.S. For those who thing global warming or climate change is cock and bull story...well please read this article. http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/Signs-Of-Global-Warming.aspx Even now if you don't think climate change is for real...well I hope you'll atleast agree that polluting the environment is not good, so don't believe in global warming just try to minimize pollution, Mother nature will be thankful to you. :)
When will the scientists, journalists, academics and politicians understand that, we, the American people actually know that no one knows for sure, 100%, about the new information and species that are emerging. There are many things, some old as time we still have no learned about 100%
Spoonman, the sensors on satellites measuring the Earth's surface temps correlate NOW with the sensors on the ground that were showing slightly warmer temps, because all the data from satellites and balloons were adjusted by hand to make the difference go away. All this took place in about 1998, I think.
Whether that was really a justifiable thing to do or not should be investigated after we finish learning how IPCC correlated all the data they wanted to and then apparently destroyed much of it so that no one now can check their work.
The great educational problem of our age is how to produce generalists who are sufficiently equipped to check the work of specialists. If this isn't done occasionally specialists in anything hold hands too much and exchange too many memos in their own language until we look and find that the whole body of them in a particular specialty have made each other as mad as hatters.
Hatters were made mad, in Lewis Carroll's time, by the chemicals they used to treat fashionable beaver skins. All workplaces have their peculiar poisons.
Clearly, we're missing something here. I think a better understanding of ocean currents (especially at the deepest levels) will give us insight into the dispersal of these organisms.
the problem with scientist is arrogance. They believe whole-heartedly only to be found incorrect by someone else. Yes, even scientist forget things or are unable to see through unblinded eyes. History is full of scientist with phd's who got it wrong. Sir your arrogance will cause your blindness
34. eltay3
in reply to ProfessorJWN04:13 PM 3/5/10
No one - except you - mentioned a PhD. It is interesting that you fail to mention what your field of education is. I will trust that if it was marine biology, you would have mentioned it. Critical thinking demands that conclusions follow VERIFIABLE facts. Homeopathy has failed to produce even one verifiable cure. When herbs prove to be effective, they are incorporated into medical treatmenmts. Failing that, they deserve to be ignored.Anticdotal evidence can never rise to the level of scientific proof.
BTW: Edison, as the champion of direct current transmission, was wrong, as Tesla - who championed alternating current - so ably proved. The proof was in the verifiable data. As it (almost) always is.
Considering all voices is fine, as long as it understood that all voices do not deserve equal weight. Homeopathy is nonsense, and will remain so until and unless the (seemingly impossible) proof appears.
@ Professor JWN, I agree that Spoonman's comment was very abrasive, but that doesn't justify disparaging the entire scientific community. There's a reason that respected scientific research is conducted at universities by communities of experienced researchers who have Ph.Ds and decades of scientific training, and not by individuals with a degree from Google: there is a vast amount of information and training that must be acquired in any one field before one can begin to conduct meaningful research. We now know so much about our world and universe that the days of amateurs contributing significantly to our scientific knowledge are now assuredly over. Of course, scientists are human and make mistakes, but the scientific method is still absolutely the best method for discovery. Sometimes experiments can give conflicting results, but eventually, with perseverance and patience, a consensus can be drawn. We may not like this consensus, but reality doesn't care how we feel. Scientists agree, based on the massive amounts of data that has been gathered, that climate change is happening. Similarly, the evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic medicine has thus far been based on anecdotal evidence and poorly designed experiments, and it is due to this lack of evidence, not a conspiracy, that homeopathic medicine is doubted within the scientific community. Climate change doubters and homeopathic medicine pushers must demonstrate that their ideas can stand the test of scientific rigor, just like every other scientifically accepted idea. Crying about conspiracies and elitism is no substitute for hard data.
Spoonman - I don't mean to be rude, but, in light of your views, don't you think you should step outside of common forums to debate your own scientific ideas? Why deliberately join in if you feel the readers are nothing but plebeians, incapable of offering plausible comments? If you feel that these open comment areas are for something other than a scientifically interested layperson's views, and this annoys you, then, why are you here?
Not knowing anything about marine snails, I might still consider rafting. There are several attested cases with species having sailed across the oceans.
I am not thinking of the animals themselves (alive) but their gametes (semen and ova). Could they survive such a long journey?
This kind of forum might be useful if we non-experts pose our ideas as questions, with a bit of humility. That might motivate people who do know the data to respond.
I said "know the data"; that does not refer to academic credentials.
Well said, Jim. I know another instance of wholesome ignorance by the modern scientific community. Traditional medicine systems such as Ayurveda, Siddha and Chinese medicine system treatments are personalized based on a persons anthropomorphic, symptomatology, and signs. This way the practitioner had a very good understanding about the patients genotypic characteristics, without the help of modern genomics.
Connecting phenotype with genotype has remained the fundamental aim of modern genetics. In recent times, modern medicine has realized that most diseases have a high genotypic and phenotypic correlation. Till date, very few modern researchers are taking cues from tradition systems of medicine in their quest to study the phenotype, genotype association.
The small creatures probably hitched a ride on the backs of whales or sharks that would travel between the poles. They could also have been attached in the form of eggs to their skin/blubber and lain dormant until they reached colder waters and then hatched. The other possibility is that they become attached as eggs to either the feathers or the legs of birds that migrate from one pole to another. Capture some birds and check out the small creatures attached in eggs to their bodies. That was an easy question. Now lets have a hard one. Chris Landau
ProfessorJWN I agree with you with respect to Spoonman's attitude! Your own PhD work intrigues me. You say that the Global Warming debate is "Much ado about nothing"! What has your research found that refutes the work of the other scientists?
46. JadeMins
in reply to sharinlite05:21 PM 5/11/12
Sharinlite ... your comment re WE (people of the USA) infers that ONLY YOU & your nation are involved here .... wake up!!!!! This has been & will continue to be an international forum, regardless of how parochial you yourself are! Tangential thinking has been around for millenia, which is how we learned to use that thing called Fire!! & now orbit the earth in the ISS with an INTERNATIONAL crew & ditto support teams to get it there, supply it, & also ditto for our Geosat, Envisat, etc, etc, satellites .... just take a peek @ what comes from the ESA ... if you dare!
Fact or Fiction: Can a Squid Fly out of Water?
Are the World's Reptile Species in Trouble?
Coral Grief: Warming Climate Threatens Reef Destruction
Melting Arctic Ice Will Make Way for More Ships--and More Species Invasions
Could Re-Wilding Avert the 6th Great Extinction? [Slide Show]
One Fifth of Invertebrate Species at Risk of Extinction
Living in a Landscape of Fear: How Predators Impact an Ecosystem
How Acidification Threatens Oceans from the Inside Out
46 Comments
Add CommentThe opening paragraph of this article gives a hint as to what the explanation may be. The whales that migrate from one polar region to the other could act as a transport means for the bi-polar organisms.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSounds like support for the "Snowball Earth Theory".
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe problem with your idea is that the last time there was a "Snowball Earth" or anything similar was 600 million years ago, and these creatures are supposed to be no more than a few generations apart.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisInteresting article. May I suggest that these creatures could travel inside larger animals, or on the backs of larger animals?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe 4°C current (the heaviest possible water) that circles the globe and crosses the equator is plenty of mechanism for me. Anything else is unnecessary.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBirds, whales, currents and of course, HISTORICAL HUMAN ACTIVITY! The fact hat there are ships that have been to both poles, shipping lanes in the vicinity of both poles and the fact that as Jeff Goldblum said it best "life will find a way..."
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI do not think something was mentioned about their sensitivity or adaptability to warm waters. A lot of crazy stuff happened in the past, and they might have been swept off the north pole all the way to the south pole. Like a baby gorilla in a reserve and its inability to cope with the outside world after-wards, those creatures could have remained in the north pole and got used to the cold water and got "Aqua-hyperthermophobic" with time..Anyone..Support..??
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI simply LOVE scientific debate...but what occurs here doesn't count. We have a bunch of nobodies producing potential solutions based entirely intuition and no empirical evidence.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHere's a thought: are you a marine biologist? If not, then your hypothesis probably isn't valid, or has already been considered and/or tested by someone who does know what they're doing. I find it hard to believe that of the hundreds of scientists mentioned in the article involved in finding out the reason for the existence of bipolars, not ONE of them has considered "transport on larger animals and/or human vessels" as a possible solution.
Goodness, it's just like the whole AGW "debate"....you get plebeians milling about shouting such inanities as "the sensors on the ground are in areas that are hot!" Really? You don't think the people who put them there thought about that? You don't think they accounted for that? You don't think anyone bothered to check temps from space via satellites to find if they correlated? (which has been done, and they do)
Look, I get it, you want to be involved. That's fantastic. But, one of the first things you need to do in order to properly get involved in the debate is learn some basic critical thinking skills.
Spoonman,
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIt is a good thing Tom Edison didn't agree with your theory, or we'd be in the dark like you.
How about Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer? Without them, much of what we take for granted would likely not exist.
Just because a person doesn't have a PhD (Piled High and Deep) behind their name (I nearly do for what it's worth) doesn't mean they are nobodies. On the contrary, much of the innovation we have today was created by similar folk.
Modern Medicine (that is a laugh) is filled with "book smart" people produced from an elitist controlled monopoly of medical schools.
These "geniuses" are wholly or nearly wholly ignorant of herbal and homeopathic medical cures, yes cures for many diseases. Rather than treat cause of disease, they treat symptoms and benefit from pill pushing.
Eggs are good for you, eggs will kill you.....mantra is the same.
BTW wasn't it a "trained researcher" who was recenbtly found responsible for totally falsifying "studies" for medical research for "big pharmacy"?
Part of the reason that science is so static and unimaginative is the fact that the "regular guy" has been effectively cut out of the discovery process.
Shoemaker-Levy 9 was discovered effectively by amateurs astronomers, HP was founded in a garage, for goodness sake, even Bill Gates was a college dropout.
And what about Global Warming, or Climate change, or as it turns out "Much ado about nothing". That too was produced by "Professionals", who were wrong. Many "nobodies" could tell you that, DUH.
Until a person knows EVERYTHING, one can always learn from others.
Even when people might be mistaken or poorly informed, true intelligent discourse and an exchange of ideas benefits everyone involved.
When we fail to consider even the smallest voice, we are doomed to our own prejudice and ignorance.
Jim
Spoonman,
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisIt is a good thing Tom Edison didn't agree with your theory, or we'd be in the dark like you.
How about Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer? Without them, much of what we take for granted would likely not exist.
Just because a person doesn't have a PhD (Piled High and Deep) behind their name (I nearly do for what it's worth) doesn't mean they are nobodies. On the contrary, much of the innovation we have today was created by similar folk.
Modern Medicine (that is a laugh) is filled with "book smart" people produced from an elitist controlled monopoly of medical schools.
These "geniuses" are wholly or nearly wholly ignorant of herbal and homeopathic medical cures, yes cures for many diseases. Rather than treat cause of disease, they treat symptoms and benefit from pill pushing.
Eggs are good for you, eggs will kill you.....mantra is the same.
BTW wasn't it a "trained researcher" who was recenbtly found responsible for totally falsifying "studies" for medical research for "big pharmacy"?
Part of the reason that science is so static and unimaginative is the fact that the "regular guy" has been effectively cut out of the discovery process.
Shoemaker-Levy 9 was discovered effectively by amateurs astronomers, HP was founded in a garage, for goodness sake, even Bill Gates was a college dropout.
And what about Global Warming, or Climate change, or as it turns out "Much ado about nothing". That too was produced by "Professionals", who were wrong. Many "nobodies" could tell you that, DUH.
Until a person knows EVERYTHING, one can always learn from others.
Even when people might be mistaken or poorly informed, true intelligent discourse and an exchange of ideas benefits everyone involved.
When we fail to consider even the smallest voice, we are doomed to our own prejudice and ignorance.
Jim
Hey Spoonman,
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThe greatest scientific discoveries of all time are mostly attributable to "amateurs."
This is a discussion form, not a refereed scientific forum. Furthermore, SA is written specifically for lay people. I, for example, do not turn to SA as a primary source for my professional specialty, but am fascinated by all the other, wide ranging articles. Apparently others share this view - that's why SA exists!
On a separate note, citing AWG to illuminate the folly of basic questioning is decidedly ill-considered now. Whether or not AWG is real is but one question; whether the issue in some shoddy science is another (the ramifications of AWG and what, if anything society should do about it are two more good questions).
Indulge your fellow readers. Educate where you are able. Do NOT assume that because you thought of an unaddressed question that it must therefore be obvious to the investigator and have been intentionally omitted as irrelevant.
By the way, I am NOT a marine biologist (or any kind of biologist; I can generally pass a Turing test, though & will leave you guessing whether I am biological). I, like you suggest, think hitchhiking on large animals, especially whales seems unlikely. There, I have offered a hypothesis, but leave testing it to others. I have to get back to my day job.
kick ar*e jim...
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWell said, JWN. No matter which end of the spectrum, an individuals intelligence may rest, there is always the potential for an insight to be found that otherwise might not be easily observed by others.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWe just have to remember that the bilge compartment of a ship can transport water (and what it�s inside) around over the world. The ships have been rounding for thousands of years all over the world in different seas and oceans, I know is very simple but it is posible.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisCuoreangelino.
HMS Erebus and Terror, so bad-ass.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisAnd I'm pretty sure the reason that the ship/large-mammal idea wasn't mentioned in the article is that both mammals and ships are substantially hotter than 4°C. I mean, if these cold water organisms could survive on/inside mammals (which should be slightly bellow 37°C, or whatever the body temperature of a whale is) or inside ships (which I would expect are well above 4°C even at their coolest), then what would have prevented them from just crossing the oceans outside of the thermohaline circulation? And why wouldn't marine biologists have seen them already doing so?
Tons of animals piggy-back on ships/large-mammals (the zebra mussel is causing problems in my neck of the Earth because of this); it's super obvious, and I'm sure the marine scientists thought about it.
In this case, I'm going to have to agree with spoony up there (even if he was way too abrasive). The people who study this stuff aren't stupid, and even if one or two of them are, there are enough smart ones to see the forest for the trees.
I'm not saying that amateurs can't have an effect on science and technology, but it's getting rarer, and you have to be careful what you mean by "amateur". All the examples that ProfessorJWN mentioned (i.e. Edison, Tesla, Marconi, or Oppenheimer) were either inventors (and thus not scientists who enhanced theoretical knowledge within their field) or were straight-up scientists (I think everyone but Edison had a university education).
You'll notice that those who do good work as amateurs never disregard the hard-won knowledge of science.
Fascinating! We have to explore this new deep water world. Kudos to this writer.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisEG
One would need to verify that the species could infact survive such a transfer be it in the gut of a whale or in the ballast of a ship.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisA good possibility but one still needs to estimate the probability of survival for these species. Something tells me that they are unable to survive this journey. But I don't know that.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThey are all small enough to hitch a ride with a whale, aren't they?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThis may be wayyyy out there but what if they where bacterium from whean the earth was a ball of hot mud? As similer species would be all over the earth and might of had parreal evolution at the poles as the earth cooled down. As i said a crazy way out there theory but a theory nevertheless.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisRealrdragons:
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisParallel and convergent evolution both refer to cases where different species wind up with similar traits, but divergent DNA. That’s not the case here since the organisms have extremely similar DNA. So no, it’s not parallel evolution, by definition.
Professor JWN definitely has a valid point that everyone is allowed to come up with their theories. Again Spoonman and Danshil are right that many of the ideas we've come up here with in the forum might have already been tested by the experts. Who know Dr.Darling & co may actually go through this forum and find some idea they just overlooked. So just for the fun of discussing Science & the possibility of discovery lets continue with our ideas.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHere's my idea, aliens mix the species from the two poles by using their special transporters just to confuse us! On a serious note I agree with Dr.Darling that DNA or RNA sequencing of these species will tell a lot...so we should wait for it.
P.S. For those who thing global warming or climate change is cock and bull story...well please read this article.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/Signs-Of-Global-Warming.aspx
Even now if you don't think climate change is for real...well I hope you'll atleast agree that polluting the environment is not good, so don't believe in global warming just try to minimize pollution, Mother nature will be thankful to you. :)
Professor JWN definitely has a valid point that everyone is allowed to come up with their theories. Again Spoonman and Danshil are right that many of the ideas we've come up here with in the forum might have already been tested by the experts. Who know Dr.Darling & co may actually go through this forum and find some idea they just overlooked. So just for the fun of discussing Science & the possibility of discovery lets continue with our ideas.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisHere's my idea, aliens mix the species from the two poles by using their special transporters just to confuse us! On a serious note I agree with Dr.Darling that DNA or RNA sequencing of these species will tell a lot...so we should wait for it.
P.S. For those who thing global warming or climate change is cock and bull story...well please read this article.
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Nature-Community/Signs-Of-Global-Warming.aspx
Even now if you don't think climate change is for real...well I hope you'll atleast agree that polluting the environment is not good, so don't believe in global warming just try to minimize pollution, Mother nature will be thankful to you. :)
When will the scientists, journalists, academics and politicians understand that, we, the American people actually know that no one knows for sure, 100%, about the new information and species that are emerging. There are many things, some old as time we still have no learned about 100%
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSpoonman, the sensors on satellites measuring the Earth's surface temps correlate NOW with the sensors on the ground that were showing slightly warmer temps, because all the data from satellites and balloons were adjusted by hand to make the difference go away. All this took place in about 1998, I think.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisWhether that was really a justifiable thing to do or not should be investigated after we finish learning how IPCC correlated all the data they wanted to and then apparently destroyed much of it so that no one now can check their work.
The great educational problem of our age is how to produce generalists who are sufficiently equipped to check the work of specialists. If this isn't done occasionally specialists in anything hold hands too much and exchange too many memos in their own language until we look and find that the whole body of them in a particular specialty have made each other as mad as hatters.
Hatters were made mad, in Lewis Carroll's time, by the chemicals they used to treat fashionable beaver skins. All workplaces have their peculiar poisons.
I am a new member, 70 years old, and will observe for a while befor entering your discussions. Just to get the feel of things.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisClearly, we're missing something here. I think a better understanding of ocean currents (especially at the deepest levels) will give us insight into the dispersal of these organisms.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThank you Jim! Spoonman needs to shut up and listen to ALL people offering ideas out there, good or bad, but I fear he will not.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisSpoonman, you might need to apply some of that "critical thinking" to your jerking knee.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisthe problem with scientist is arrogance. They believe whole-heartedly only to be found incorrect by someone else. Yes, even scientist forget things or are unable to see through unblinded eyes. History is full of scientist with phd's who got it wrong. Sir your arrogance will cause your blindness
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thiswell said Jim
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI smell an upcoming creationist argument... *shiver*
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI smell an upcoming creationist argument *shiver*
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNo one - except you - mentioned a PhD. It is interesting that you fail to mention what your field of education is. I will trust that if it was marine biology, you would have mentioned it. Critical thinking demands that conclusions follow VERIFIABLE facts. Homeopathy has failed to produce even one verifiable cure. When herbs prove to be effective, they are incorporated into medical treatmenmts. Failing that, they deserve to be ignored.Anticdotal evidence can never rise to the level of scientific proof.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisBTW: Edison, as the champion of direct current transmission, was wrong, as Tesla - who championed alternating current - so ably proved. The proof was in the verifiable data. As it (almost) always is.
Considering all voices is fine, as long as it understood that all voices do not deserve equal weight. Homeopathy is nonsense, and will remain so until and unless the (seemingly impossible) proof appears.
Why not?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisis This the teleportation,
or entanglment?
@ Professor JWN,
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI agree that Spoonman's comment was very abrasive, but that doesn't justify disparaging the entire scientific community. There's a reason that respected scientific research is conducted at universities by communities of experienced researchers who have Ph.Ds and decades of scientific training, and not by individuals with a degree from Google: there is a vast amount of information and training that must be acquired in any one field before one can begin to conduct meaningful research. We now know so much about our world and universe that the days of amateurs contributing significantly to our scientific knowledge are now assuredly over.
Of course, scientists are human and make mistakes, but the scientific method is still absolutely the best method for discovery. Sometimes experiments can give conflicting results, but eventually, with perseverance and patience, a consensus can be drawn. We may not like this consensus, but reality doesn't care how we feel.
Scientists agree, based on the massive amounts of data that has been gathered, that climate change is happening. Similarly, the evidence for the efficacy of homeopathic medicine has thus far been based on anecdotal evidence and poorly designed experiments, and it is due to this lack of evidence, not a conspiracy, that homeopathic medicine is doubted within the scientific community. Climate change doubters and homeopathic medicine pushers must demonstrate that their ideas can stand the test of scientific rigor, just like every other scientifically accepted idea. Crying about conspiracies and elitism is no substitute for hard data.
Spoonman - I don't mean to be rude, but, in light of your views, don't you think you should step outside of common forums to debate your own scientific ideas? Why deliberately join in if you feel the readers are nothing but plebeians, incapable of offering plausible comments? If you feel that these open comment areas are for something other than a scientifically interested layperson's views, and this annoys you, then, why are you here?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisPerhaps some critical thinking skills such as Hendrik Schon or Al Gore?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisPerhaps some critical thinking skills such as Hendrik Schon or Al Gore?
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisNot knowing anything about marine snails, I might still consider rafting. There are several attested cases with species having sailed across the oceans.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI am not thinking of the animals themselves (alive) but their gametes (semen and ova). Could they survive such a long journey?
This kind of forum might be useful if we non-experts pose our ideas as questions, with a bit of humility. That might motivate people who do know the data to respond.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI said "know the data"; that does not refer to academic credentials.
Well said, Jim. I know another instance of wholesome ignorance by the modern scientific community. Traditional medicine systems such as Ayurveda, Siddha and Chinese medicine system treatments are personalized based on a persons anthropomorphic, symptomatology, and signs. This way the practitioner had a very good understanding about the patients genotypic characteristics, without the help of modern genomics.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisConnecting phenotype with genotype has remained the fundamental aim of modern genetics. In recent times, modern medicine has realized that most diseases have a high genotypic and phenotypic correlation. Till date, very few modern researchers are taking cues from tradition systems of medicine in their quest to study the phenotype, genotype association.
The small creatures probably hitched a ride on the backs of whales or sharks that would travel between the poles. They could also have been attached in the form of eggs to their skin/blubber and lain dormant until they reached colder waters and then hatched. The other possibility is that they become attached as eggs to either the feathers or the legs of birds that migrate from one pole to another. Capture some birds and check out the small creatures attached in eggs to their bodies. That was an easy question. Now lets have a hard one. Chris Landau
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisThat would work.The kiss principle.Good idea.Also on the outside on the hulls.Barnacles and all.
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisProfessorJWN
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to thisI agree with you with respect to Spoonman's attitude! Your own PhD work intrigues me. You say that the Global Warming debate is "Much ado about nothing"! What has your research found that refutes the work of the other scientists?
Sharinlite ... your comment re WE (people of the USA) infers that ONLY YOU & your nation are involved here .... wake up!!!!! This has been & will continue to be an international forum, regardless of how parochial you yourself are! Tangential thinking has been around for millenia, which is how we learned to use that thing called Fire!! & now orbit the earth in the ISS with an INTERNATIONAL crew & ditto support teams to get it there, supply it, & also ditto for our Geosat, Envisat, etc, etc, satellites .... just take a peek @ what comes from the ESA ... if you dare!
Reply | Report Abuse | Link to this